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[margomaps]

"Threat escalation" is half the problem. (1) Because many problems can be solved alternatively (e.g. try asking kindly to have the overdue charge removed; has never failed for me); (2) Because, in the grand scheme, you're vastly outnumbered. Unless your life is in imminent danger, it doesn't do you any good, long-term, to continually escalate the level of violence. Unless you have a large armed force, willing to die for an overdue book charge, you will lose. And that's a waste of energies and talent that could really be used for something far more productive.

I do agree with you that being threatened with physical harm is pretty rare; especially relative to the one- to two-million people in this country who will voluntarily submit to an arrest for drug violations alone.  You are also correct in that if you happen to be the subject of a potential arrest for a relatively petty offense, your priority can be to "live another day" by submitting rather than resisting.

However, this does not change the fact that if you do (for whatever reason) decide to resist what you believe to be unjust punishment/detention for some law you broke, that it is the government/police who are the ones who will escalate the situation up to and including deadly force in order to achieve compliance.  Just because people much more frequently comply out of fear does not change the ground rules.  I think you're talking about tactics for survival in a police state, and others are talking about the real consequences of resisting a police state.  Neither side is incorrect, but this is sort of proceeding like an Abbott and Costello routine.

[rossby]

However, this does not change the fact that if you do (for whatever reason) decide to resist what you believe to be unjust punishment/detention for some law you broke, that it is the government/police who are the ones who will escalate the situation up to and including deadly force in order to achieve compliance.  Just because people much more frequently comply out of fear does not change the ground rules.  I think you're talking about tactics for survival in a police state, and others are talking about the real consequences of resisting a police state.  Neither side is incorrect, but this is sort of proceeding like an Abbott and Costello routine.

I think I see what you're saying. And that is a fact. But facts are useless alone. What can we do with it? Yes, I'm talking about survival. But it's not mere survival. Knowing what the real consquences of a resisting a "police state" are, if you want to change anything, you must alter how you choose to respond rather than respond the way you would prefer to. We do have various systems--imperfect and unjust as they may be. But it is fairly rare that actual physical violence is escalated unilaterally. You cannot dismantle a "police state" if you get yourself dead by choosing poorly. S'all I'm saying.

[margomaps]

I think I see what you're saying. And that is a fact. But facts are useless alone. What can we do with it? Yes, I'm talking about survival. But it's not mere survival. Knowing what the real consquences of a resisting a "police state" are, if you want to change anything, you must alter how you choose to respond rather than respond the way you would prefer to. We do have various systems--imperfect and unjust as they may be. But it is fairly rare that actual physical violence is escalated unilaterally. You cannot dismantle a "police state" if you get yourself dead by choosing poorly. S'all I'm saying.

Good.  Now that we have a babelfish to help us understand one another, I think we can safely say this:

1) I agree that 99% of the time it's probably better to suck it up and pay a modest penalty than to die over a delinquent tax (for example).
2) You agree that the system is totally @#%!'d up, in that the police might very well kill you if you resist punishment over something as trivial as taxes.

[Keyser Soce]

I think I see what you're saying. And that is a fact. But facts are useless alone. What can we do with it? Yes, I'm talking about survival. But it's not mere survival. Knowing what the real consquences of a resisting a "police state" are, if you want to change anything, you must alter how you choose to respond rather than respond the way you would prefer to. We do have various systems--imperfect and unjust as they may be. But it is fairly rare that actual physical violence is escalated unilaterally. You cannot dismantle a "police state" if you get yourself dead by choosing poorly. S'all I'm saying.

Good.  Now that we have a babelfish to help us understand one another, I think we can safely say this:

1) I agree that 99% of the time it's probably better to suck it up and pay a modest penalty than to die over a delinquent tax (for example).
2) You agree that the system is totally @#%!'d up, in that the police might very well kill you if you resist punishment over something as trivial as taxes.

I agree with your agreement. Problem is, I'm up to about 87 out of your 99 percent.

Tick tock.

[NHArticleTen]

Then there is the question of whether "they" are even "authentic" jackboots...could just be MS13 dressed for success...(not that there is any real difference)

Then there is the question of whether the "tail-light out traffic stop" will actually turn out to be your being whisked away to Syria for some "R and R water-boarding"...

Of course, I'm not saying either of these situations are commonplace, but they have occurred, hence they remain an ever increasing possibility and threat...

Perhaps there are thousands of these events...except that it's "against the law" for us to tell you about them...and if we do...we are subject to some foreign R and R...

Go figure...

Enjoy!




www.campaignforliberty.com

[kelteckiller]

Then there is the question of whether "they" are even "authentic" jackboots...could just be MS13 dressed for success...(not that there is any real difference)

Then there is the question of whether the "tail-light out traffic stop" will actually turn out to be your being whisked away to Syria for some "R and R water-boarding"...

Of course, I'm not saying either of these situations are commonplace, but they have occurred, hence they remain an ever increasing possibility and threat...

Perhaps there are thousands of these events...except that it's "against the law" for us to tell you about them...and if we do...we are subject to some foreign R and R...

Go figure...

Enjoy!




www.campaignforliberty.com

I ask this question legitimately...Do you really think that someone has been "whisked away to Syria for some "R and R water-boarding"... JUST for a tail light out?  If you are just being sarcastic and I didn't see it, then ok....just curious

[NHArticleTen]

Then there is the question of whether "they" are even "authentic" jackboots...could just be MS13 dressed for success...(not that there is any real difference)

Then there is the question of whether the "tail-light out traffic stop" will actually turn out to be your being whisked away to Syria for some "R and R water-boarding"...

Of course, I'm not saying either of these situations are commonplace, but they have occurred, hence they remain an ever increasing possibility and threat...

Perhaps there are thousands of these events...except that it's "against the law" for us to tell you about them...and if we do...we are subject to some foreign R and R...

Go figure...

Enjoy!




www.campaignforliberty.com

I ask this question legitimately...Do you really think that someone has been "whisked away to Syria for some "R and R water-boarding"... JUST for a tail light out?  If you are just being sarcastic and I didn't see it, then ok....just curious

The point was that the "simple traffic stop for a supposed tail-light out" was ACTUALLY the jackboots and mercenaries having a relatively easy time kidnapping the victim simply because the victim thought he was just being pulled over for a "simple traffic violation"...

Further, since we are hearing from the gooberment that they believe(erroneously of course) that they have the "power" to declare virtually anyone a terrorist or terrorist supporter(how could you ever know since some things are "ok" to sell to "Americans" but not "ok" to sell to "foreigners") and to then kidnap, imprison indefinitely, torture, mutilate, injure, and even murder them...all at the whim of some supposed "state" or "government" with some supposed "authority" or "jurisdiction"...all erroneous and incorrect...and, as usual, the aggression/force/fraud is dealt out with the ever present threat of their supposed magical mystical murder wand of power...

Then...since we are hearing and observing these kidnappings...we should ALWAYS assume the worst case scenario when ANYONE in any sort of costume attempts to get anywhere near us...or to talk to us...or to stop us as we are walking, biking, jogging, running, driving, flying, sailing, etc.

And we should fight like our very lives depended on it...because that very well may be the case...

See, that's one of the big problems with running a successful police state...

Once you've decided the police are your enemy(which they are)...

Then each encounter with them becomes potentially deadly...

Because, of course, when it's just a couple of human beings with some clothes/costumes on...or even naked...and they pull guns on each other...

Somebody is going to have to either give in...shoot...or be shot...

There is no other way...

Naked people with guns...

Who would have guessed...

Repel, Destroy, And Eliminate...

Go figure...

Enjoy!





www.campaignforliberty.com

[kelteckiller]

Then there is the question of whether "they" are even "authentic" jackboots...could just be MS13 dressed for success...(not that there is any real difference)

Then there is the question of whether the "tail-light out traffic stop" will actually turn out to be your being whisked away to Syria for some "R and R water-boarding"...

Of course, I'm not saying either of these situations are commonplace, but they have occurred, hence they remain an ever increasing possibility and threat...

Perhaps there are thousands of these events...except that it's "against the law" for us to tell you about them...and if we do...we are subject to some foreign R and R...

Go figure...

Enjoy!




www.campaignforliberty.com

I ask this question legitimately...Do you really think that someone has been "whisked away to Syria for some "R and R water-boarding"... JUST for a tail light out?  If you are just being sarcastic and I didn't see it, then ok....just curious

The point was that the "simple traffic stop for a supposed tail-light out" was ACTUALLY the jackboots and mercenaries having a relatively easy time kidnapping the victim simply because the victim thought he was just being pulled over for a "simple traffic violation"...

Further, since we are hearing from the gooberment that they believe(erroneously of course) that they have the "power" to declare virtually anyone a terrorist or terrorist supporter(how could you ever know since some things are "ok" to sell to "Americans" but not "ok" to sell to "foreigners") and to then kidnap, imprison indefinitely, torture, mutilate, injure, and even murder them...all at the whim of some supposed "state" or "government" with some supposed "authority" or "jurisdiction"...all erroneous and incorrect...and, as usual, the aggression/force/fraud is dealt out with the ever present threat of their supposed magical mystical murder wand of power...

Then...since we are hearing and observing these kidnappings...we should ALWAYS assume the worst case scenario when ANYONE in any sort of costume attempts to get anywhere near us...or to talk to us...or to stop us as we are walking, biking, jogging, running, driving, flying, sailing, etc.

And we should fight like our very lives depended on it...because that very well may be the case...

See, that's one of the big problems with running a successful police state...

Once you've decided the police are your enemy(which they are)...

Then each encounter with them becomes potentially deadly...

Because, of course, when it's just a couple of human beings with some clothes/costumes on...or even naked...and they pull guns on each other...

Somebody is going to have to either give in...shoot...or be shot...

There is no other way...

Naked people with guns...

Who would have guessed...

Repel, Destroy, And Eliminate...

Go figure...

Enjoy!





www.campaignforliberty.com

This is what happens when you smoke an entire bowl of fruit loops...

I would put a pay check on that NO ONE has ever been sent to Syria or even here in the states and was water-boarded for JUST a tail light out....You are tapped!

[J’raxis 270145]

This is what happens when you smoke an entire bowl of fruit loops...

I would put a pay check on that NO ONE has ever been sent to Syria or even here in the states and was water-boarded for JUST a tail light out....You are tapped!

He’s saying that if they wanted to interrogate someone suspected of being a “terrorist,” they could use such a traffic stop as a pretext in order to grab the person. Or, perhaps such a (genuine) traffic stop would result in the cops seeing the feds want the person (when they do the routine license/registration check), so they arrest them and hand them over to the feds, and then such happens…

[kelteckiller]

This is what happens when you smoke an entire bowl of fruit loops...

I would put a pay check on that NO ONE has ever been sent to Syria or even here in the states and was water-boarded for JUST a tail light out....You are tapped!

He’s saying that if they wanted to interrogate someone suspected of being a “terrorist,” they could use such a traffic stop as a pretext in order to grab the person. Or, perhaps such a (genuine) traffic stop would result in the cops seeing the feds want the person (when they do the routine license/registration check), so they arrest them and hand them over to the feds, and then such happens…

Oh ok...that is a much different scenario.

[NHArticleTen]

This is what happens when you smoke an entire bowl of fruit loops...

I would put a pay check on that NO ONE has ever been sent to Syria or even here in the states and was water-boarded for JUST a tail light out....You are tapped!

He’s saying that if they wanted to interrogate someone suspected of being a “terrorist,” they could use such a traffic stop as a pretext in order to grab the person. Or, perhaps such a (genuine) traffic stop would result in the cops seeing the feds want the person (when they do the routine license/registration check), so they arrest them and hand them over to the feds, and then such happens…

Thanks for squaring that away J!

Not only that...but consider this...
You're the "cop" and you "take someone into custody for the feds"...

How are you going to feel later on when you find out that they WERE transported to a foreign country and tortured for years...

So...
You may in fact think you're doing a "good thing" by being a "cop"...
Except that you're not if you don't protect your local people from being jackbooted by the fed goons/CIA/MI6/Mossad/etc...

Example: Ed and Elaine Brown...they trusted their neighbors, their community, those tasked with "protect and serve", etc...and what did they get...jackbooted...

Why do "we" need to put grandparents who just want to be left alone...in prison...and to steal and loot their property...
What are they going to "have" when they get out of prison...nothing...
Their home is gone, their possessions are gone, their savings is gone...
They've went from being self sufficient to being wards of the state...

The whole state should have come to their defense...
After all...you or your parents or your neighbors could be next...

Go figure...
Enjoy!




www.campaignforliberty.com

[NHArticleTen]

This is what happens when you smoke an entire bowl of fruit loops...

I would put a pay check on that NO ONE has ever been sent to Syria or even here in the states and was water-boarded for JUST a tail light out....You are tapped!

He’s saying that if they wanted to interrogate someone suspected of being a “terrorist,” they could use such a traffic stop as a pretext in order to grab the person. Or, perhaps such a (genuine) traffic stop would result in the cops seeing the feds want the person (when they do the routine license/registration check), so they arrest them and hand them over to the feds, and then such happens…

Oh ok...that is a much different scenario.

Are you actually asking us to believe you couldn't figure that out on your own?

Jeff Foxworthy has a question for you(http://www.fox.com/areyousmarter/)...

Go figure...
RAD
Enjoy!





www.campaignforliberty.com

[kelteckiller]

This is what happens when you smoke an entire bowl of fruit loops...

I would put a pay check on that NO ONE has ever been sent to Syria or even here in the states and was water-boarded for JUST a tail light out....You are tapped!

He’s saying that if they wanted to interrogate someone suspected of being a “terrorist,” they could use such a traffic stop as a pretext in order to grab the person. Or, perhaps such a (genuine) traffic stop would result in the cops seeing the feds want the person (when they do the routine license/registration check), so they arrest them and hand them over to the feds, and then such happens…

Thanks for squaring that away J!

Not only that...but consider this...
You're the "cop" and you "take someone into custody for the feds"...

How are you going to feel later on when you find out that they WERE transported to a foreign country and tortured for years...

So...
You may in fact think you're doing a "good thing" by being a "cop"...
Except that you're not if you don't protect your local people from being jackbooted by the fed goons/CIA/MI6/Mossad/etc...

Example: Ed and Elaine Brown...they trusted their neighbors, their community, those tasked with "protect and serve", etc...and what did they get...jackbooted...

Why do "we" need to put grandparents who just want to be left alone...in prison...and to steal and loot their property...
What are they going to "have" when they get out of prison...nothing...
Their home is gone, their possessions are gone, their savings is gone...
They've went from being self sufficient to being wards of the state...

The whole state should have come to their defense...
After all...you or your parents or your neighbors could be next...

Go figure...
Enjoy!




www.campaignforliberty.com

What did YOU do preacher?

[NHArticleTen]

This is what happens when you smoke an entire bowl of fruit loops...

I would put a pay check on that NO ONE has ever been sent to Syria or even here in the states and was water-boarded for JUST a tail light out....You are tapped!

He’s saying that if they wanted to interrogate someone suspected of being a “terrorist,” they could use such a traffic stop as a pretext in order to grab the person. Or, perhaps such a (genuine) traffic stop would result in the cops seeing the feds want the person (when they do the routine license/registration check), so they arrest them and hand them over to the feds, and then such happens…

Thanks for squaring that away J!

Not only that...but consider this...
You're the "cop" and you "take someone into custody for the feds"...

How are you going to feel later on when you find out that they WERE transported to a foreign country and tortured for years...

So...
You may in fact think you're doing a "good thing" by being a "cop"...
Except that you're not if you don't protect your local people from being jackbooted by the fed goons/CIA/MI6/Mossad/etc...

Example: Ed and Elaine Brown...they trusted their neighbors, their community, those tasked with "protect and serve", etc...and what did they get...jackbooted...

Why do "we" need to put grandparents who just want to be left alone...in prison...and to steal and loot their property...
What are they going to "have" when they get out of prison...nothing...
Their home is gone, their possessions are gone, their savings is gone...
They've went from being self sufficient to being wards of the state...

The whole state should have come to their defense...
After all...you or your parents or your neighbors could be next...

Go figure...
Enjoy!




www.campaignforliberty.com

What did YOU do preacher?

No preachers here...
Sorry, then I'd have to kill you...

However...
And, interestingly enough...

Perhaps it's not what has, or hasn't, been done...
Perhaps it's what we'll do in the present and future since the past cannot be undone...

Ed and Elaine Brown, along with many others like Randy Weaver, Yori Kahl, Irwin Schiff, Charlie Puckett, Leonard Peltier, Indianapolis Reverends Greg Dixon(Sr and Jr), Brian and Ruth Christine, etc., can have the clothes off my back, the food from my plate, and the place of my slumber...from here until eternity...




www.campaignforliberty.com

[kelteckiller]

This is what happens when you smoke an entire bowl of fruit loops...

I would put a pay check on that NO ONE has ever been sent to Syria or even here in the states and was water-boarded for JUST a tail light out....You are tapped!

He’s saying that if they wanted to interrogate someone suspected of being a “terrorist,” they could use such a traffic stop as a pretext in order to grab the person. Or, perhaps such a (genuine) traffic stop would result in the cops seeing the feds want the person (when they do the routine license/registration check), so they arrest them and hand them over to the feds, and then such happens…

Thanks for squaring that away J!

Not only that...but consider this...
You're the "cop" and you "take someone into custody for the feds"...

How are you going to feel later on when you find out that they WERE transported to a foreign country and tortured for years...

So...
You may in fact think you're doing a "good thing" by being a "cop"...
Except that you're not if you don't protect your local people from being jackbooted by the fed goons/CIA/MI6/Mossad/etc...

Example: Ed and Elaine Brown...they trusted their neighbors, their community, those tasked with "protect and serve", etc...and what did they get...jackbooted...

Why do "we" need to put grandparents who just want to be left alone...in prison...and to steal and loot their property...
What are they going to "have" when they get out of prison...nothing...
Their home is gone, their possessions are gone, their savings is gone...
They've went from being self sufficient to being wards of the state...

The whole state should have come to their defense...
After all...you or your parents or your neighbors could be next...

Go figure...
Enjoy!




www.campaignforliberty.com

What did YOU do preacher?

No preachers here...
Sorry, then I'd have to kill you...

However...
And, interestingly enough...

Perhaps it's not what has, or hasn't, been done...
Perhaps it's what we'll do in the present and future since the past cannot be undone...

Ed and Elaine Brown, along with many others like Randy Weaver, Yori Kahl, Irwin Schiff, Charlie Puckett, Leonard Peltier, Indianapolis Reverends Greg Dixon(Sr and Jr), Brian and Ruth Christine, etc., can have the clothes off my back, the food from my plate, and the place of my slumber...from here until eternity...




www.campaignforliberty.com

We all know the past can not be changed, but how long do you sit in here using your quips and do nothing?  It's always "I WILL ONE DAY!"  "Watch out for tomorrow!"  Sounds like someone fearful of the unknown...