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Author Topic: Exile as alternative to prison...  (Read 7426 times)

techforumz

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Re: Exile as alternative to prison...
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2008, 09:15:09 pm »

I googled "26 USC 1". Found nothing relevant. Just the various tax brackets. It doesn't state any right or reference to the 16th amendment.
No I didn't file; I'm a minor.
And true, the Federal Constitution contains many corrupt laws. Basically almost everything after the bill of rights has been tainted in some way or another. Example 15th (I believe) amendment. "Penalty for Insurrection". Enacted by democrat Lincoln.
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rossby

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Re: Exile as alternative to prison...
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2008, 09:56:53 pm »

I googled "26 USC 1". Found nothing relevant. Just the various tax brackets. It doesn't state any right or reference to the 16th amendment.
No I didn't file; I'm a minor.
And true, the Federal Constitution contains many corrupt laws. Basically almost everything after the bill of rights has been tainted in some way or another. Example 15th (I believe) amendment. "Penalty for Insurrection". Enacted by democrat Lincoln.

Guess I'm not sure what you were looking for then. I thought you wanted to be "shown the law that states a necessity to pay income tax." The Sixteenth Amendment does not give the Congress power to tax--the original U.S. Constitution already "gave" them the power to tax. It was fiercely contested issue during the constitutional convention. And you might be thinking of the 14th Amendment; regardless, amendments aren't "enacted" by the President.

I was asking Powerchuter if he filed. But since you mention it, being a minor doesn't mean you don't have to file.
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techforumz

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Re: Exile as alternative to prison...
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2008, 12:53:13 am »

I googled "26 USC 1". Found nothing relevant. Just the various tax brackets. It doesn't state any right or reference to the 16th amendment.
No I didn't file; I'm a minor.
And true, the Federal Constitution contains many corrupt laws. Basically almost everything after the bill of rights has been tainted in some way or another. Example 15th (I believe) amendment. "Penalty for Insurrection". Enacted by democrat Lincoln.

Guess I'm not sure what you were looking for then. I thought you wanted to be "shown the law that states a necessity to pay income tax." The Sixteenth Amendment does not give the Congress power to tax--the original U.S. Constitution already "gave" them the power to tax. It was fiercely contested issue during the constitutional convention. And you might be thinking of the 14th Amendment; regardless, amendments aren't "enacted" by the President.

I was asking Powerchuter if he filed. But since you mention it, being a minor doesn't mean you don't have to file.
Well, what I found was basically the various pay per bracket. While useful for general purpose research it was of no use in that a citizen is required to pay income tax. That is exactly what I ask. Probably was thinking of 14th. Anyways, the president was, at the time, much like the media is today. After all, how did he manage to garner approximately 75% of the then former United States to prohibit the states' right to secede?

And the income tax is irrelevant to me, minor or otherwise; no job.
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rossby

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Re: Exile as alternative to prison...
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2008, 09:50:38 am »

I googled "26 USC 1". Found nothing relevant. Just the various tax brackets. It doesn't state any right or reference to the 16th amendment.
No I didn't file; I'm a minor.
And true, the Federal Constitution contains many corrupt laws. Basically almost everything after the bill of rights has been tainted in some way or another. Example 15th (I believe) amendment. "Penalty for Insurrection". Enacted by democrat Lincoln.

Guess I'm not sure what you were looking for then. I thought you wanted to be "shown the law that states a necessity to pay income tax." The Sixteenth Amendment does not give the Congress power to tax--the original U.S. Constitution already "gave" them the power to tax. It was fiercely contested issue during the constitutional convention. And you might be thinking of the 14th Amendment; regardless, amendments aren't "enacted" by the President.

I was asking Powerchuter if he filed. But since you mention it, being a minor doesn't mean you don't have to file.
Well, what I found was basically the various pay per bracket. While useful for general purpose research it was of no use in that a citizen is required to pay income tax. That is exactly what I ask. Probably was thinking of 14th. Anyways, the president was, at the time, much like the media is today. After all, how did he manage to garner approximately 75% of the then former United States to prohibit the states' right to secede?

And the income tax is irrelevant to me, minor or otherwise; no job.

If the operative word you're looking for is "pay", try 26 USC 6151:
Quote
26 U.S.C. § 6151
"[W]hen a return of tax is required under this title or regulations, the person required to make such return shall ... pay such tax to the internal revenue officer with whom the return is filed . . . ."
« Last Edit: June 14, 2008, 11:30:09 am by B.D. Ross »
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crism

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Re: Exile as alternative to prison...
« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2008, 05:01:44 pm »

Re exile: Ever wonder how the people receiving the criminals will feel about that? Hey Australia, here are some free murderers for you! And what’s to keep them from returning? Exile is not a realistic solution, at least not until we build moon-based penal colonies (if you consider that realistic).

Re tax law: This is a red herring. The problem is that the taxes are levied and collected, regardless of the legality. If someone did conclusively prove that the current income tax is illegal, do you seriously think that Congress wouldn’t convene a special session to fix the loophole within a week? The people with the guns and the courts all act as though the taxes are legal. You can challenge it, and you may be right, but you will be right in jail. Congratulations. Let’s instead focus on educating people on why taxation is bad, cutting spending, and reducing or eliminating any tax we can.
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Portsmouth and loving it.

techforumz

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Re: Exile as alternative to prison...
« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2008, 05:32:40 pm »

Re exile: Ever wonder how the people receiving the criminals will feel about that? Hey Australia, here are some free murderers for you! And what’s to keep them from returning? Exile is not a realistic solution, at least not until we build moon-based penal colonies (if you consider that realistic).
Good point, but as I've stated we could set up an enclosed area, within which, "prisoners" are free to do whatever they please. Many non-criminals will find it attractive, as it's another chance to redeem yourself. Also, it doesn't strain resources at all.
Quote

Re tax law: This is a red herring. The problem is that the taxes are levied and collected, regardless of the legality. If someone did conclusively prove that the current income tax is illegal, do you seriously think that Congress wouldn’t convene a special session to fix the loophole within a week? The people with the guns and the courts all act as though the taxes are legal. You can challenge it, and you may be right, but you will be right in jail. Congratulations. Let’s instead focus on educating people on why taxation is bad, cutting spending, and reducing or eliminating any tax we can.
Exactly why I proposed this...
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MaineShark

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Re: Exile as alternative to prison...
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2008, 12:34:44 pm »

Good point, but as I've stated we could set up an enclosed area, within which, "prisoners" are free to do whatever they please. Many non-criminals will find it attractive, as it's another chance to redeem yourself. Also, it doesn't strain resources at all.

Enclosed with what, precisely?

And who is going to guard it, and repair damage, etc?

Joe
« Last Edit: June 15, 2008, 04:57:59 pm by MaineShark »
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rossby

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Re: Exile as alternative to prison...
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2008, 01:35:57 pm »

You can challenge it, and you may be right, but you will be right in jail. Congratulations. Let’s instead focus on educating people on why taxation is bad, cutting spending, and reducing or eliminating any tax we can. (emphasis added).

Just wanted to point out here, that was my intent.

I love the enthusiasm to stick it to the tax man. I really do. But maintaining frivolous tax evasion schemes (as the IRS calls them) is counterproductive. It puts energetic, ethical people in prison.

I vividly recall my next-door neighbor's father--a General Motor's factory worker--being sentenced to 5 years in a federal prison for getting caught up in a frivolous tax "evasion" scheme. What a mess it created for that family...

If we wish to change the law, it helps to understand what the law is first. If I could, I would rewrite the federal tax code. And in a perfect world, I would eliminate it completely.
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John Edward Mercier

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Re: Exile as alternative to prison...
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2008, 02:33:06 pm »

The tax laws were rewritten... by a subset of the populous that wished to 'stick it to the rich' (as many still desire). They couldn't foresee a future where they themselves were touched. And those that hate taxation for 'services' they themselves do not desire, many times have no problem with taxation for services they do.
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J’raxis 270145

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Re: Exile as alternative to prison...
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2008, 04:29:00 pm »

I hope this is in the correct section. Anyways, why don't offer our true prisoners the opportunity to be exiled. Send them to asia or australia, somewhere they can't do any harm to us. Basically, give them a chance to start over. Of course either country could refuse them, but perhaps we could designate a small area for people like that, see how much better or worse they fare than us. Thus answering the debate of anarchy v. tyranny. Does this make any sense at all? Just wondering.

Exile works if there’s open land to send them somewhere, which is why the practice died out sometime last century, once the various nation-states took over the entire planet.
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techforumz

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Re: Exile as alternative to prison...
« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2008, 08:12:59 pm »

I hope this is in the correct section. Anyways, why don't offer our true prisoners the opportunity to be exiled. Send them to asia or australia, somewhere they can't do any harm to us. Basically, give them a chance to start over. Of course either country could refuse them, but perhaps we could designate a small area for people like that, see how much better or worse they fare than us. Thus answering the debate of anarchy v. tyranny. Does this make any sense at all? Just wondering.

Exile works if there’s open land to send them somewhere, which is why the practice died out sometime last century, once the various nation-states took over the entire planet.

Antarctica...

EDIT: Anyways, all I mean by that, is that people that make mistakes should have a choice to start over, prison does not allow for that. Not to mention victim-less crimes.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2008, 08:17:47 pm by techforumz »
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J’raxis 270145

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Re: Exile as alternative to prison...
« Reply #26 on: June 16, 2008, 08:29:25 pm »

I hope this is in the correct section. Anyways, why don't offer our true prisoners the opportunity to be exiled. Send them to asia or australia, somewhere they can't do any harm to us. Basically, give them a chance to start over. Of course either country could refuse them, but perhaps we could designate a small area for people like that, see how much better or worse they fare than us. Thus answering the debate of anarchy v. tyranny. Does this make any sense at all? Just wondering.

Exile works if there’s open land to send them somewhere, which is why the practice died out sometime last century, once the various nation-states took over the entire planet.

Antarctica...

Claimed by several countries. If someone sets foot there without government permission, they’ll actually send a military ship to pick the person up. I actually looked at a couple of libertarian projects looking to settle people there, and that was one of the problems they ran into.

EDIT: Anyways, all I mean by that, is that people that make mistakes should have a choice to start over, prison does not allow for that. Not to mention victim-less crimes.

Definitely. In a Stateless society, exile would be the only way to “punish” someone really—if someone’s committed an act of aggression, and they’re not stopped or killed in the process, they’d be ostracized (a form of internal exile, I suppose) by those around them until they’ve compensated their victim for the damages.
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techforumz

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Re: Exile as alternative to prison...
« Reply #27 on: June 16, 2008, 09:05:16 pm »

I hope this is in the correct section. Anyways, why don't offer our true prisoners the opportunity to be exiled. Send them to asia or australia, somewhere they can't do any harm to us. Basically, give them a chance to start over. Of course either country could refuse them, but perhaps we could designate a small area for people like that, see how much better or worse they fare than us. Thus answering the debate of anarchy v. tyranny. Does this make any sense at all? Just wondering.

Exile works if there’s open land to send them somewhere, which is why the practice died out sometime last century, once the various nation-states took over the entire planet.

Antarctica...

Claimed by several countries. If someone sets foot there without government permission, they’ll actually send a military ship to pick the person up. I actually looked at a couple of libertarian projects looking to settle people there, and that was one of the problems they ran into.
Okay, dead end. And Mars doesn't count. ;) Well, actually, I'm guessing there isn't much military strength natively there, thus it is the best logical (and practical), solution, but still not entirely practical, and in a libertarian society, we could just send them to our claims.
Quote
EDIT: Anyways, all I mean by that, is that people that make mistakes should have a choice to start over, prison does not allow for that. Not to mention victim-less crimes.

Definitely. In a Stateless society, exile would be the only way to “punish” someone really—if someone’s committed an act of aggression, and they’re not stopped or killed in the process, they’d be ostracized (a form of internal exile, I suppose) by those around them until they’ve compensated their victim for the damages.
Ok, I see your point. However, prison allows for neither compensation to the victim, nor a second chance. My concern is, what if someone who is innocent was charged, assuming victimless crimes are eliminated? In prison he would have nothing, in exile, he could start over.
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J’raxis 270145

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Re: Exile as alternative to prison...
« Reply #28 on: June 16, 2008, 09:36:50 pm »

Definitely. In a Stateless society, exile would be the only way to “punish” someone really—if someone’s committed an act of aggression, and they’re not stopped or killed in the process, they’d be ostracized (a form of internal exile, I suppose) by those around them until they’ve compensated their victim for the damages.

Ok, I see your point. However, prison allows for neither compensation to the victim, nor a second chance. My concern is, what if someone who is innocent was charged, assuming victimless crimes are eliminated? In prison he would have nothing, in exile, he could start over.

Right. I’m not sure what you’re debating here; I’m agreeing with you that exile is a good solution in a free society, and just describing how it would really be done (social ostracism) in a society with no State.
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techforumz

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Re: Exile as alternative to prison...
« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2008, 11:41:19 am »

Definitely. In a Stateless society, exile would be the only way to “punish” someone really—if someone’s committed an act of aggression, and they’re not stopped or killed in the process, they’d be ostracized (a form of internal exile, I suppose) by those around them until they’ve compensated their victim for the damages.

Ok, I see your point. However, prison allows for neither compensation to the victim, nor a second chance. My concern is, what if someone who is innocent was charged, assuming victimless crimes are eliminated? In prison he would have nothing, in exile, he could start over.

Right. I’m not sure what you’re debating here; I’m agreeing with you that exile is a good solution in a free society, and just describing how it would really be done (social ostracism) in a society with no State.
I'm not sure what I'm debating either... It was late, as I recall.
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