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Author Topic: A few questions  (Read 51520 times)

J’raxis 270145

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Re: A few questions
« Reply #75 on: June 16, 2008, 07:42:55 pm »

As for the second fear, isn't it far more likely for someone who is NOT libertarian to be a greater political enemy than almost-a-libertarian?  And, as far as I know, New Hampshire is still being filled with way more socialists from Massachusetts than libertarians of any sort, pure or otherwise.

You aren't judged by the actions of your enemies, but by the actions of your "allies."

We do not need folks claiming to be one of "us," and then going off on how great it is to call the cops when your neighbor's dog barks.  Because we all end up getting blamed for that sort of nonsense.

I don’t know about this. People were saying this after the Guinta controversy and it never happened. I think it was made quite clear that the freestaters who supported his election did not support his attacks on the pro-decrim rep, and so nothing stuck to the FSP, so to speak.

We also had that incident where a freestater got a restraining order against another after a domestic dispute. If I recall correctly, a lot of freestaters turned against her at that point—and others helped her find an alternative solution, private mediation, which I think was the correct course of action. I would suggest a similar route for our noise-averse friend here.

Freestaters seem to be very good at preventing others from painting us all as one big homogeneous group. :)
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J’raxis 270145

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Re: A few questions
« Reply #76 on: June 16, 2008, 07:55:43 pm »

They just seem to be absorbed with these Internet debates, while the doers in NH largely have much more... reasonable views.

Lol. The handful of ardent NAP-supporters on this forum are all movers. You?

Fortunately, I don't think I've actually met any of these Free Staters in person.

Well, if you hadn’t skipped out of PorcFest so soon after your speech, I’d’ve said hi. ;D
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magicmonkey

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Re: A few questions
« Reply #77 on: June 16, 2008, 07:59:23 pm »


There's no such thing as a verbal assault.


Again, just asking; if there is no verbal assault, what is slander and libel?  It could be slander/libel of my own character, which I assume I own, or slander/libel that hurts the earning or investment potential of my private property.  Are those just assumed risks?

Quote

Rights are negative.  Your right to life doesn't mean that someone has to pay to feed you; it means that no one may just kill you for fun, or any other reason (except self-defense, if you attack them).

Your property rights mean that no one may take your property from you, or damage it.  They do not mean that you can dictate what they do on their property.

Joe

What if I were holding a classical concert on my property and it was phonically competing with rock next door?  Is it my responsibility to pay for the additional expense of holding the concert, or is it the other person's responsibility to pay (by reducing their enjoyment) by lowering the volume?  Also, do I own the airspace above my land?  Because if noise is a mere annoyance, it seems I don't own the airspace above my land.  If I don't own the airspace above my property, who does?

Again, I don't have the answers, but I appreciate your insights.
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MaineShark

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Re: A few questions
« Reply #78 on: June 17, 2008, 09:15:18 am »

I don’t know about this. People were saying this after the Guinta controversy and it never happened. I think it was made quite clear that the freestaters who supported his election did not support his attacks on the pro-decrim rep, and so nothing stuck to the FSP, so to speak.

Despite his flaws, Guinta was a positive change.  The case of supporting negative laws is different.

We also had that incident where a freestater got a restraining order against another after a domestic dispute. If I recall correctly, a lot of freestaters turned against her at that point—and others helped her find an alternative solution, private mediation, which I think was the correct course of action. I would suggest a similar route for our noise-averse friend here.

That was not really publicized.

Freestaters seem to be very good at preventing others from painting us all as one big homogeneous group. :)

Not really.  Look at the nut who thinks that "our leader" got arrested at the airport.

Again, just asking; if there is no verbal assault, what is slander and libel?  It could be slander/libel of my own character, which I assume I own, or slander/libel that hurts the earning or investment potential of my private property.  Are those just assumed risks?

Slander and libel are fraud.  I could go on about what a jerk you are, or accuse you of unspeakable things.  As long as they are my opinion, or any accusations are actually true, there is no slander or libel.  Those terms only apply when fraud is involved.

What if I were holding a classical concert on my property and it was phonically competing with rock next door?  Is it my responsibility to pay for the additional expense of holding the concert, or is it the other person's responsibility to pay (by reducing their enjoyment) by lowering the volume?

Neither one has to pay.  Just because you dislike something, does not mean that the perpetrator of that thing has harmed you, or owes you payment.  I dislike folks who walk around in public with extremely-strong perfume/cologne.  That doesn't mean that my aesthetic disapproval of their odor gives me cause to attack them and demand payment for some imaginary "harm."

I would suggest, if you were going to the trouble of holding a concert, you might want to mention that to your neighbors.  More than likely, they would be willing to keep the rock music turned off, just to be polite.  After all, when they want to hold a rock concert, they certainly don't want Tchaikovsky drowning out the guitars, so being accommodating is in their own best interest.  Or, maybe they would ask that you pay them to keep the volume down.  Then, if they failed to do so, they would be violating a contract and you would have a right to seek reparations.

Also, do I own the airspace above my land?  Because if noise is a mere annoyance, it seems I don't own the airspace above my land.  If I don't own the airspace above my property, who does?

Airspace, above the point that you can use, is not ownable, due to the physical fact that you cannot make and establish a claim.  If you decide to build a skyscraper, obviously you have extended the height that you are capable of using.

Noise, by itself, travels.  Just like air.  While you could own the "airspace" up to a certain point, you cannot own the air.  Air travels, without intervention.  If you were to pump some air into a tank, then you could own it (while it was in the tank), because it no longer travels freely.

Joe
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magicmonkey

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Re: A few questions
« Reply #79 on: June 17, 2008, 01:44:24 pm »


Airspace, above the point that you can use, is not ownable, due to the physical fact that you cannot make and establish a claim.  If you decide to build a skyscraper, obviously you have extended the height that you are capable of using.

Noise, by itself, travels.  Just like air.  While you could own the "airspace" up to a certain point, you cannot own the air.  Air travels, without intervention.  If you were to pump some air into a tank, then you could own it (while it was in the tank), because it no longer travels freely.

Joe

I realize noise, by itself, travels just like air, because it is air that is vibrating at specific audible frequencies.  Does that mean people can't own radio spectrum, since they can't lay claim over it as private property or dispute "frequency stealing"?  Radio spectrum is just higher energy frequencies traveling in the air, just like noise.  What if I beamed specific radio frequencies to drown out or otherwise distort your radio frequencies from my own property, assuming there is no bodily or structural harm, do I have a claim for a legitimate complaint?  To me it seems like a "noise violation", only with higher frequencies.
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MaineShark

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Re: A few questions
« Reply #80 on: June 17, 2008, 01:46:51 pm »

I realize noise, by itself, travels just like air, because it is air that is vibrating at specific audible frequencies.  Does that mean people can't own radio spectrum, since they can't lay claim over it as private property or dispute "frequency stealing"?  Radio spectrum is just higher energy frequencies traveling in the air, just like noise.  What if I beamed specific radio frequencies to drown out or otherwise distort your radio frequencies from my own property, assuming there is no bodily or structural harm, do I have a claim for a legitimate complaint?  To me it seems like a "noise violation", only with higher frequencies.

You can't own portions of the radio spectrum.

Joe
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"An armed society is a polite society" - this does not mean that we are polite because we fear each other.

We are not civilized because we are armed; we are armed because we are civilized..

J’raxis 270145

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Re: A few questions
« Reply #81 on: June 17, 2008, 03:17:53 pm »

Freestaters seem to be very good at preventing others from painting us all as one big homogeneous group. :)

Not really.  Look at the nut who thinks that "our leader" got arrested at the airport.

Maybe I should’ve said, we’re good at correcting people who make these mistakes. People piled on that guy for that. The few times we’ve had people come in here and accuse “us” of being racists, or prejudiced against a particular religion, or somesuch, similar happens.

Again, just asking; if there is no verbal assault, what is slander and libel?  It could be slander/libel of my own character, which I assume I own, or slander/libel that hurts the earning or investment potential of my private property.  Are those just assumed risks?

Slander and libel are fraud.  I could go on about what a jerk you are, or accuse you of unspeakable things.  As long as they are my opinion, or any accusations are actually true, there is no slander or libel.  Those terms only apply when fraud is involved.

Specifically, the American legal concept of slander/libel is just a special case of fraud. The U.K. and many other nations consider even true statements to be slander/libel if the intent of the spreader was to harm the victim’s reputation.
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MaineShark

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Re: A few questions
« Reply #82 on: June 17, 2008, 03:21:37 pm »

Maybe I should’ve said, we’re good at correcting people who make these mistakes. People piled on that guy for that. The few times we’ve had people come in here and accuse “us” of being racists, or prejudiced against a particular religion, or somesuch, similar happens.

Yeah, but how many others like him are out there, with the same false notions, who will never read this forum?

Specifically, the American legal concept of slander/libel is just a special case of fraud. The U.K. and many other nations consider even true statements to be slander/libel if the intent of the spreader was to harm the victim’s reputation.

The anarchic concept of slander/libel, as well.  If something isn't force/fraud, it's not a violation.

Joe
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J’raxis 270145

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Re: A few questions
« Reply #83 on: June 17, 2008, 03:22:45 pm »

I realize noise, by itself, travels just like air, because it is air that is vibrating at specific audible frequencies.  Does that mean people can't own radio spectrum, since they can't lay claim over it as private property or dispute "frequency stealing"?  Radio spectrum is just higher energy frequencies traveling in the air, just like noise.  What if I beamed specific radio frequencies to drown out or otherwise distort your radio frequencies from my own property, assuming there is no bodily or structural harm, do I have a claim for a legitimate complaint?  To me it seems like a "noise violation", only with higher frequencies.

That one can “own” radio frequencies is a misconception created by the fact that the government monopolizes its use (via the FCC) and then sells access rights to that which they’ve taken control of. It’s a legal fiction like “intellectual” property (invented by the British government in the 1600s to regulate printers, now perverted beyond recognition by those who profit from it) and the up-and-coming “carbon-trading” scheme.
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Russell Kanning

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Re: A few questions
« Reply #84 on: June 17, 2008, 04:10:53 pm »

I live in California where I can no longer afford to stay, partly because of the state income tax.  So I looked into states with no income tax, one of which is New Hampshire, and so I found out about the Free State Project.  I am not a strict libertarian and haven't been very politically active.  I know some libertarian groups are pretty extreme, but from this forum, this group seems quite tolerant.  So my first question is, does someone who is about 80% libertarian fit into the Free State Project?

I am looking for a town that is quiet (meaning no noise) and walkable.  I don't want to hear my neighbor's dogs or stereo.  But I would like to be able to walk to a grocery store.
I have found there to be less noisy dogs and stereos in NH than CA.
Many people say that I am not libertarian at all and I am part of the FSP.
Our group is very extreme and tolerant. :)
In Keene the grocery stores can be too far.
In Grafton there is no grocery store to walk to.
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"Resolve to serve no more, and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces." -- Etienne de La Boetie, The Politics of Obedience: The Discourse of Voluntary Servitude

magicmonkey

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Re: A few questions
« Reply #85 on: June 17, 2008, 04:35:42 pm »

I realize noise, by itself, travels just like air, because it is air that is vibrating at specific audible frequencies.  Does that mean people can't own radio spectrum, since they can't lay claim over it as private property or dispute "frequency stealing"?  Radio spectrum is just higher energy frequencies traveling in the air, just like noise.  What if I beamed specific radio frequencies to drown out or otherwise distort your radio frequencies from my own property, assuming there is no bodily or structural harm, do I have a claim for a legitimate complaint?  To me it seems like a "noise violation", only with higher frequencies.

You can't own portions of the radio spectrum.

Joe

Yeah, I agree.  But I can certainly produce frequencies with enough strength to drown out or distort others, all from my own private property and not cause harm to their body or private structures.  Isn't that a noise violation issue?
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NHArticleTen

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Re: A few questions
« Reply #86 on: June 18, 2008, 07:25:25 am »

I live in California where I can no longer afford to stay, partly because of the state income tax.  So I looked into states with no income tax, one of which is New Hampshire, and so I found out about the Free State Project.  I am not a strict libertarian and haven't been very politically active.  I know some libertarian groups are pretty extreme, but from this forum, this group seems quite tolerant.  So my first question is, does someone who is about 80% libertarian fit into the Free State Project?

I am looking for a town that is quiet (meaning no noise) and walkable.  I don't want to hear my neighbor's dogs or stereo.  But I would like to be able to walk to a grocery store.
I have found there to be less noisy dogs and stereos in NH than CA.
Many people say that I am not libertarian at all and I am part of the FSP.
Our group is very extreme and tolerant. :)
In Keene the grocery stores can be too far.
In Grafton there is no grocery store to walk to.

our leader speaks...

NHArticleTen

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Re: A few questions
« Reply #87 on: June 18, 2008, 07:58:32 am »

I realize noise, by itself, travels just like air, because it is air that is vibrating at specific audible frequencies.  Does that mean people can't own radio spectrum, since they can't lay claim over it as private property or dispute "frequency stealing"?  Radio spectrum is just higher energy frequencies traveling in the air, just like noise.  What if I beamed specific radio frequencies to drown out or otherwise distort your radio frequencies from my own property, assuming there is no bodily or structural harm, do I have a claim for a legitimate complaint?  To me it seems like a "noise violation", only with higher frequencies.

You can't own portions of the radio spectrum.

Joe

Yeah, I agree.  But I can certainly produce frequencies with enough strength to drown out or distort others, all from my own private property and not cause harm to their body or private structures.  Isn't that a noise violation issue?

"enough strength"...

ah, the race to the Global Annihilation Device...

haven't we already "been there...done that"...

and now that we have...folks like Maineshark, J, and I are totally fed up with the "unpure"...

several folks repeatedly proclaim that we should welcome the "unpure" into our midst to assist in "movement" towards "productive" ends...

and we won't deny that using/exploiting these unpure people "helps" to slow down the tyranny of the majority...

but by the very nature of our usage/exploitation of the unpure...we are extending and furthering the reign of terror of the tyrannical majority...

and I won't claim to be innocent of these charges...I wholeheartedly use/exploit the Ron Paul Campaign and the Campaign for Liberty(not to mention Aaron Russo's film and many other instruments of instruction) to assist in reaching/educating/waking-up those who have stagnated in Philosophical Maturity 101...

WHERE DO WE DRAW THE LINE WITH THE UNPURE...

good question...

Perhaps that depends on exactly WHAT they are DOING to others...

Do we wait until the perpetrator of aggression progresses all the way from ACTUAL USAGE of a club to the GAD(global annihilation device)...

or do we...instead...endeavor to repel and destroy all the looters, bureaucrats, jackboots, and mercenaries well before they "perfect" their perpetration of perpetual aggression/force/fraud upon whole regions...whole peoples...and ultimately upon the whole globe...

simply put...my seventeen year old daughter is an Individual Sovereign Human Being and, as such, she utilizes "repel and destroy" to maintain, demand, and assert her advocacy of the Philosophical Mature Non-Aggression Principle in her self defense and the defense of each and every other Individual Sovereign Human Being with Basic Inherent Inalienable Irrevocable Human Rights...

when she repels and destroys the rapist who attempts to perpetrate her victimization...she spares each and every other human being of the advancing aggression/force/fraud of the rapist who might very well become the possessor of the GAD...

we're not opposed to EDUCATING the unpure...

we're not opposed to destroying them either...

Go figure...


(food for thought for any and all who directly or indirectly approve of or participate in...ANY aggression/force/fraud...and, yes, even one percent of it makes you a looter, bureaucrat, jackboot, and/or mercenary...who may be legitimately repelled and destroyed at the intended victim's discretion)...

JUST SAY NO TO THE LOOTERS, BUREAUCRATS, JACKBOOTS, AND MERCENARIES!

John Edward Mercier

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Re: A few questions
« Reply #88 on: June 18, 2008, 08:17:42 am »

Unpure?
A mercenary is self governed... entering a contract and beholden only to it.
The suggestion that non-agression is more than a philosophical principle... and a governing principle... denies anarchy.
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JonM

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Re: A few questions
« Reply #89 on: June 18, 2008, 08:18:47 am »

Funny thing, I live about 700 yards from a race track, as the crow flies and the sound travels.  If I sit outside on a Sunday afternoon, the noise can be quite loud.  The amazing thing about triple pane windows, is I can't hear any of it inside my house.  The speedway predates my purchase of the house and even the construction of the house.  I have no standing to bitch about it, perhaps one day the land will become worth more than the potential revenue of the speedway and be sold for other development.  Until then, I have a well insulated house, for both temperature and noise.

Of course, I'm not really within walking distance to anything either.
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