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Author Topic: A few questions  (Read 51521 times)

MaineShark

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Re: A few questions
« Reply #60 on: June 11, 2008, 06:53:04 pm »

Now, I'm not asking you to prove it now. I'm just saying, that if you expect people to accept grand hand-waving statements, back it up! Tell us why you think a certain way.

"Grand hand-waving statements," eh?  Like, when you and Fishercat and schmidt all say that you have some mystical positive right to use violence against those who make noises you dislike?  Those sort of statements?

And describing how that sort of oppression has been common throughout history doesn't qualify as proof that you are right.  Slavery was also common throughout history.

So, since you folks are the ones actually making the positive claim here, namely that you have a right to use violence against those who make annoying, but non-harmful levels of noise... back up your claim.

Joe
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fschmidt

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Re: A few questions
« Reply #61 on: June 11, 2008, 07:06:51 pm »

MainShark, I hope you won't object to me squeezing your nose if I see you in NH.  After all, that is just annoying, not harmful.
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MaineShark

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Re: A few questions
« Reply #62 on: June 11, 2008, 10:24:17 pm »

MainShark, I hope you won't object to me squeezing your nose if I see you in NH.  After all, that is just annoying, not harmful.

No, that's a physical assault, and you should expect to be treated to whatever level of defensive force I feel is appropriate, if you try that.

Joe
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rossby

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Re: A few questions
« Reply #63 on: June 11, 2008, 10:41:56 pm »

Now, I'm not asking you to prove it now. I'm just saying, that if you expect people to accept grand hand-waving statements, back it up! Tell us why you think a certain way.

"Grand hand-waving statements," eh?  Like, when you and Fishercat and schmidt all say that you have some mystical positive right to use violence against those who make noises you dislike?  Those sort of statements?

...

So, since you folks are the ones actually making the positive claim here, namely that you have a right to use violence against those who make annoying, but non-harmful levels of noise... back up your claim.

That's incorrect. I have not made this claim at any point in this thread. Please don't invent claims and falsely attribute them to me.

If you incorrectly believe that's what I've said, you should re-read the thread.


Go look up the definition of assault.  Using sound waves to cause damage to another is no different from firing bullets.

The issue, of course, is actually causing damage.  You can't fire a gun randomly at my house, either.  Or set a brush fire, knowing that you do not have the means to control it.  But simply annoying me does not cause me damage, so your dog can bark all it wants, unless we have a contract that says otherwise, in which case you would be in violation of that contract.

Unfortunately, the definition of assault has been ingrained in my skull.

Indeed, I would entreat you to look up the definition of assault. Try Black's or refer to Blackstone. From this, you don't appear to distinguish assault from other private wrongs.

Someone doesn't seem to understand how self-evident statements work.  The fact is that it is logically impossible to argue against self-ownership without implicitly accepting self-ownership as valid.  Offering to let you try is just humor - you can't.

But your statement is not self-evident. All you've done is repeated your claim. And now added that even allowing someone to try to refute the claim would be humorous. Because--as you continue to assert without proof--it cannot be refuted.

Protest as much as you like. Fact remains, you haven't reasoned or supported your arguments logically, like you claim you are doing. No appeal to authority, ridicule, obviousness, or other diversionary fallacy will obviate the lack of support for your claims.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing will all of your conclusions. I'm saying, as logical arguments--as you claim they are--the claims are not being supported. And it really stands out when you call major conclusions axioms. Personally, I find this rhetorical style distasteful, because it's so easy to intersperse personal beliefs disguised as absolute truths. But you're not in terrible company. Hegel and Marx had similar rhetorical styles: "I know the truth; and stating the truth is sufficient to prove it's truth."

I hope you won't object to me squeezing your nose if I see you in NH.  After all, that is just annoying, not harmful.

Priceless.
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NHArticleTen

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Re: A few questions
« Reply #64 on: June 12, 2008, 05:45:29 am »

Powerchuter, could you add your town to the location in your profile so that I can skip that town when I visit NH?

Rob travels around a lot.  So do I.  You should probably just avoid the whole state, since you clearly think that using aggressive force to oppress others is perfectly acceptable behavior.

Joe

the most calming effect that NH has on me...personally...is knowing that Joe and I are NOT alone in our philosophy...and our determination to "Live Free or Die"...here in New Hampshire...

and we're removing more and more from the matrix each and every day...

others...not so much...

RAD

MaineShark

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Re: A few questions
« Reply #65 on: June 12, 2008, 07:52:38 am »

That's incorrect. I have not made this claim at any point in this thread. Please don't invent claims and falsely attribute them to me.

No one has a right to absolute quiet. The recognized right is "quiet enjoyment" of your property. That other people's uses of their property should not unduly interfere with your use of your property. Sound, light, noxious odors, soot deposited upon your property from smokestacks... these can all be trespassory. Trespass and nuisance are both ancient and intimately related. It's a really a very fascinating subject--how various societies deal with this! :D

Have fun.

Unfortunately, the definition of assault has been ingrained in my skull.

Oh?  Why don't you share it, then, if it's so ingrained?

Indeed, I would entreat you to look up the definition of assault. Try Black's or refer to Blackstone. From this, you don't appear to distinguish assault from other private wrongs.

Try Webster's.

But your statement is not self-evident. All you've done is repeated your claim. And now added that even allowing someone to try to refute the claim would be humorous. Because--as you continue to assert without proof--it cannot be refuted.

Protest as much as you like. Fact remains, you haven't reasoned or supported your arguments logically, like you claim you are doing. No appeal to authority, ridicule, obviousness, or other diversionary fallacy will obviate the lack of support for your claims.

I'm also not going to prove that the Earth is round, or that the sky is blue, or that gravitation tends to cause masses to attract each other.  Deal with it.  Those things are well-proven elsewhere, and not even to the same extent that self-ownership is.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing will all of your conclusions. I'm saying, as logical arguments--as you claim they are--the claims are not being supported. And it really stands out when you call major conclusions axioms. Personally, I find this rhetorical style distasteful, because it's so easy to intersperse personal beliefs disguised as absolute truths. But you're not in terrible company. Hegel and Marx had similar rhetorical styles: "I know the truth; and stating the truth is sufficient to prove it's truth."

Your "rhetorical style" seems to be that you whine and complain about everything, without ever adding anything of substance to any conversation, then argue about how you didn't mean to say what you obviously said.  It's exactly the style used by politicians, and other such scum.

Anyone with any real involvement in the liberty movement would know of the principle of self-ownership, and the derivation.  I'm not duplicating it here because such a request is completely asinine.  Unless, of course, the one making the request actually knows nothing about the principles involved in libertarian thought, because that individual is actually nothing of the sort...

As I said, I'm also not "proving" that the Earth is round, or how gravitation works, or any other such things.  That's not because they're unprovable, or because I'm insisting that you should just "take it on faith," but simply because they have been established elsewhere, and you should already know that if you live in this society.

Joe
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magicmonkey

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Re: A few questions
« Reply #66 on: June 16, 2008, 12:28:49 pm »

Wow, I really don't understand why some members of the Free State Project wouldn't want a an "80%" libertarian.  S/he isn't all there.  So why not bring them into the State and "convert" where it will be easier, and you get to win political allies.  Is there some fear that this 80-percenter will pollute the truth?  Or is the fear that they will become a political enemy?  I don't see the first situation happening, because if the truth is the Truth, it won't be polluted and everyone can continue to spread the concept of self-ownership.  As for the second fear, isn't it far more likely for someone who is NOT libertarian to be a greater political enemy than almost-a-libertarian?  And, as far as I know, New Hampshire is still being filled with way more socialists from Massachusetts than libertarians of any sort, pure or otherwise.
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MaineShark

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Re: A few questions
« Reply #67 on: June 16, 2008, 12:35:16 pm »

As for the second fear, isn't it far more likely for someone who is NOT libertarian to be a greater political enemy than almost-a-libertarian?  And, as far as I know, New Hampshire is still being filled with way more socialists from Massachusetts than libertarians of any sort, pure or otherwise.

You aren't judged by the actions of your enemies, but by the actions of your "allies."

We do not need folks claiming to be one of "us," and then going off on how great it is to call the cops when your neighbor's dog barks.  Because we all end up getting blamed for that sort of nonsense.

Joe
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JasonPSorens

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Re: A few questions
« Reply #68 on: June 16, 2008, 12:42:05 pm »

Wow, I really don't understand why some members of the Free State Project wouldn't want a an "80%" libertarian.  S/he isn't all there.  So why not bring them into the State and "convert" where it will be easier, and you get to win political allies.  Is there some fear that this 80-percenter will pollute the truth?  Or is the fear that they will become a political enemy?  I don't see the first situation happening, because if the truth is the Truth, it won't be polluted and everyone can continue to spread the concept of self-ownership.  As for the second fear, isn't it far more likely for someone who is NOT libertarian to be a greater political enemy than almost-a-libertarian?  And, as far as I know, New Hampshire is still being filled with way more socialists from Massachusetts than libertarians of any sort, pure or otherwise.

A few Free Staters prefer to have child molesters running around than someone who might want a local noise ordinance.  ::) Fortunately, I don't think I've actually met any of these Free Staters in person. They just seem to be absorbed with these Internet debates, while the doers in NH largely have much more... reasonable views.
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MaineShark

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Re: A few questions
« Reply #69 on: June 16, 2008, 12:45:17 pm »

They just seem to be absorbed with these Internet debates, while the doers in NH largely have much more... reasonable views.

As opposed to you, who lives where, precisely?

Speaking as someone who actually lives in NH and who actually has involvement here, you couldn't be further from the truth.  The ones who try to cater to the lowest common denominator are typically the ones who get nothing, or next-to-nothing actually done.

Joe
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magicmonkey

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Re: A few questions
« Reply #70 on: June 16, 2008, 04:18:37 pm »

Ok, MaineShark, I have a question pinging inside my head and I say this not to be a dick, but out of honest curiosity:
If someone is yelling "fuck!" repeatedly in my general direction, is it verbal assault?  Is there such a thing as verbal assault, because wouldn't it just be noise I found annoying or unpleasant, i.e. by your definition does not involve civil liberties?  The person is clearly causing no physical harm and we can even assume they are not on my private property or otherwise committing trespass.  If they were pointed away from me, I guess I would have no case besides "oh, it's annoying".  I would, however, feel assaulted to have someone yell obscenities at me or at my general direction, or really any word that is generally understood to be derogatory.  How is this different (again, I don't know, I'm just asking) from loud sounds being emitted in my general direction at "unreasonable" times?

For me, it still unclear whether or not one has the private property right to not be bothered by "offensive" sounds.  I'm having a difficult time making a distinction as you do, and for me it's a very gray area.
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MaineShark

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Re: A few questions
« Reply #71 on: June 16, 2008, 04:35:58 pm »

Ok, MaineShark, I have a question pinging inside my head and I say this not to be a dick, but out of honest curiosity:
If someone is yelling "fuck!" repeatedly in my general direction, is it verbal assault?  Is there such a thing as verbal assault, because wouldn't it just be noise I found annoying or unpleasant, i.e. by your definition does not involve civil liberties?  The person is clearly causing no physical harm and we can even assume they are not on my private property or otherwise committing trespass.  If they were pointed away from me, I guess I would have no case besides "oh, it's annoying".  I would, however, feel assaulted to have someone yell obscenities at me or at my general direction, or really any word that is generally understood to be derogatory.  How is this different (again, I don't know, I'm just asking) from loud sounds being emitted in my general direction at "unreasonable" times?

There's no such thing as a verbal assault.

For me, it still unclear whether or not one has the private property right to not be bothered by "offensive" sounds.  I'm having a difficult time making a distinction as you do, and for me it's a very gray area.

Rights are negative.  Your right to life doesn't mean that someone has to pay to feed you; it means that no one may just kill you for fun, or any other reason (except self-defense, if you attack them).

Your property rights mean that no one may take your property from you, or damage it.  They do not mean that you can dictate what they do on their property.

Joe
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Dave Mincin

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Re: A few questions
« Reply #72 on: June 16, 2008, 05:38:15 pm »


A few Free Staters prefer to have child molesters running around than someone who might want a local noise ordinance.  ::) Fortunately, I don't think I've actually met any of these Free Staters in person. They just seem to be absorbed with these Internet debates, while the doers in NH largely have much more... reasonable views.

As one of the first half dozen movers, I remember those nut cases well.  Fortunately we were able to run them off. :)

Personally I and most of the folks I know would welcome as many 80 or 60% libertarians willing to come.  I don't recall anything in the statement of intent that says only pure libertarians need
apply. ???

Getting things done and really moving in the direction of freedom requires building broad based coalitions.

A good example of this is REAL ID.  With Joel in the lead, after years of work we were able to defeat REAL ID in NH.  In truth we built a broad based coalition of lefties, righties, socialist, Christians, homeschooliers and who knows how many other groups, hell. even the ACLU.   Left to the pure llibertarians, it just wouldn't have happened.

I honestly believe that many of you folks who express interest in the project, because of what you read on this forum, get the wrong impression.  The real truth is most of the real doers, have little time for constant debate on this forum.  They are to busy living there lives, working there jobs, raising there faimilies, and doing what time permits to promote freedom.

In truth the many folks I have been working with to promote a freer NH, almost never post to this forum.

BTW Joel Winters, a Freestater, and the first porc elected to the legislature, was elected as a Democrat!  Maybe he isn't pure, but hardly think him any less a freedom guy, and he is the only one of us who has a vote in Concord.

I'm hopeful that you folks who are interested in joining us do not take the words of the few in NH who seem to love debating on the forum, but rather look to the folks who live here, and are working to actually get things done.

Sorry we are to busy to respond to all of your questions or thoughts...but hello real world, only so many hours in the day! :)

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Re: A few questions
« Reply #73 on: June 16, 2008, 06:52:16 pm »

We debate to open our mindset.
Its a chance to look at an idea that we have held to be truth in a new light. Sometimes its a little messy... but I find it worthwhile.
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J’raxis 270145

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Re: A few questions
« Reply #74 on: June 16, 2008, 07:13:59 pm »

Property rights is not a blanket term, and the source of property rights is not debatable. 

So anyone who thinks this open to debate should not be eligible to join the Free State Project?   Or quit, if they have already signed up? 

Just checking.

I think the original poster is “there enough” to be eligible for the FSP. Moving to a place with so many libertarians tends to have the effect of helping people move in the right direction on the ideological spectrum. I’ve seen this happen with several people.
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