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Author Topic: Laziness  (Read 8649 times)

rdeacon

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Laziness
« on: April 02, 2003, 08:47:38 am »

Everyone -

I'm going to totally level with you all.  I've been signed up for close to a year now, and we haven't even hit 5,000 members yet.  I don't see people coming out in droves to join the FSP, and I wouldn't be surprised if half of the sign ups have since abandoned the project.

I'll tell you right off the bat that I'm not entirely dedicated to the project myself.  I mean, I want liberty and all, but I'm not moving 3,000 miles from all my family and friends to achieve it.  If you ask me if its worth an income tax and hiding marijuana use to stay near my family, than I would say "yes".

And I'll say something else.  Those on this message board may not agree with me, but I'll bet at least 25% of the members here think the following thought: I'll vote for the state nearest to where I live regardless of its qualifications.

We wonder why NH is so popular on this board.  It has nothing to do with NH's libertarian ethic.  It has to do with the population center around NH.  Even if NH was a communist holdout it would still be just as popular because of its location.  It's probably the only state I'd live in, I sure as hell am not going to Wyoming.

I don't mean to rile everyone up, but lets be honest here, I'm not totally uprooting myself for this.

Peace.
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Karl

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Re:Laziness
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2003, 09:17:55 am »

I'm going to totally level with you all.  I've been signed up for close to a year now, and we haven't even hit 5,000 members yet.  I don't see people coming out in droves to join the FSP, and I wouldn't be surprised if half of the sign ups have since abandoned the project.

Indeed, membership growth is disappointing.  When the vote comes, we'll know the level of continued participation by how many people return their balots.  I'm confidient that we'll reach the vote by spring of 2004.

I'll tell you right off the bat that I'm not entirely dedicated to the project myself.  I mean, I want liberty and all, but I'm not moving 3,000 miles from all my family and friends to achieve it.  If you ask me if its worth an income tax and hiding marijuana use to stay near my family, than I would say "yes".

That such sacrifices were required to make this project work have been crystal clear.

We wonder why NH is so popular on this board.  It has nothing to do with NH's libertarian ethic.  It has to do with the population center around NH.  Even if NH was a communist holdout it would still be just as popular because of its location.  It's probably the only state I'd live in, I sure as hell am not going to Wyoming.

Bull.  NH is among the top states of the candidate states by most measures.  If it were a "communist holdout" it would have been eliminated like HI and RI were; if VT were more libertarian than it is, it would probably beat NH handily.  Some of us have decided to opt out of states we were unwilling to move to.   I do share some of your concerns about the eventual success of this project, however.  Indeed, NH is a good state for one to "cut his losses" and still have a net benefit for liberty if the FSP "fails".

I don't mean to rile everyone up, but lets be honest here, I'm not totally uprooting myself for this.

You should have passed on the FSP or at least opted out of some states.  FSP members require a degree of idealism and hope in the face of overwhelming odds, or we may as well do nothing.
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craft_6

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Re:Laziness
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2003, 10:15:23 am »

I'm going to totally level with you all.  I've been signed up for close to a year now, and we haven't even hit 5,000 members yet.  I don't see people coming out in droves to join the FSP, and I wouldn't be surprised if half of the sign ups have since abandoned the project.

I have a different perspective.  I have been amazed at the continued membership growth of the FSP.  Many in the freedom movement are just now becoming aware of it, and many more are just now starting to take it seriously, as momentum builds.  

In a little over a year, the FSP now has 1/10th as many members as the LP, which has been around for 30 years.  I fully expect membership to double to 10,000 shortly after the state is selected, then continue slowly growing to 20,000.  

I'll tell you right off the bat that I'm not entirely dedicated to the project myself.  I mean, I want liberty and all, but I'm not moving 3,000 miles from all my family and friends to achieve it.  If you ask me if its worth an income tax and hiding marijuana use to stay near my family, than I would say "yes".

I don't mean to rile everyone up, but lets be honest here, I'm not totally uprooting myself for this.

Uprooting yourself, for whatever reason, can turn out to be an overwhelmingly positive and liberating experience, a chance to start over and reinvent yourself.  Six years ago, I moved 2,000 miles from all my family and friends, merely to work for a better company, at a slightly higher salary.  It's turned out to be the best decision I ever made.

The time I used to spend hanging out with my friends was suddenly available, so I enrolled in night school and earned a degree I had always thought about, advancing my career even further.  I got involved in the community, and met new friends.  Within a few months of moving here, I met the woman who has been my wife for the past 4 years.  Old friends and family are only a phone call, or an email, or a vacation away.
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exitus

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Re:Laziness
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2003, 02:10:52 pm »

On the front-page, www.freestateproject.org, it says:

"We don't require your money, just your signature - and when the time comes, your willingness to carry through on your word of honor."

Now, hold that thought while I make another statement . . .

In light of all of the talk about opt-outs recently, rdeacon makes a serious contention, which is a good way to summarize the many comments that have been made from the beginning:
Quote
  I sure as hell am not going to Wyoming.


The fact that Wyoming is the best state for success, first and foremost in terms of population; and then from dozens of different measurements enumerated by the statistics and spreadsheets just doesn't seem to cut it in the opinion of many who cannot get motivated to move themselves there, let alone the daunting prospect of attracting 20,000 individuals and their families to Wyoming.

Over on the FSP Recruiting and PR forum, Karl made an insightful analysis, including this quote:
. . .  The fact that many libertarians are successful professionals isn't surprising; most are the types of people that seek self-sufficiency and a degree of financial success. . .

Now, as stated above, the FSP is a project to move people into a state, not money.
But think hypotheticaly for a moment . . .
If the FSP was a plan to invest money in creating a free state, can anyone doubt for even a second that Wyoming would win the vote, hands down, as the absolute best state, with the best return on the dollar towards creating a free state?
We would probably already have 20,000 people willing to send $50 per month to their favorite cause or candidate in Wyoming.  There would probably already be hundreds of spots on television and radio, commercials for liberty running throughout Wyoming.

All of this talk about jobs and climate and livability would be largely irrelavant.

Why would we care about a state that we didn't even live in?

Well, hopefully that point isn't one that needs much explaining to this group: every state in the Union that holds its own on some factor in support of liberty lends support to other states as an example and provides contrast to those states that relinquish more freedom.  These general differences provided by the rights of states in a patchwork of federalism is probably one of the greatest reasons that the U.S. has held onto that document called the Constitution.

From the sign-up page for 'Friends of the FSP':

Quote
We hope you are able to eventually join us, but we understand that not everyone has the ability to move but would like to see a Free State exist for their children and grand children as well as to serve as a deterrent to tyranny. Being a Friend of the Free State Project allows you to help!

Once again,
[A free state will ] serve as a deterrent to tyrrany  People who understand this principle and yet remain dedicated to fighting statism where they call home, whether in New Hampshire or California should recognize how valuable a free state, any free state is to the rest of the 49 states!

-----(comment deleted by exitus 4/03/03)
« Last Edit: April 03, 2003, 10:49:43 am by exitus »
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freedomroad

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Re:Laziness
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2003, 12:56:03 am »

I could go on with this proposal, believe me,  I've got pages of stuff as to why Wyoming is the wrong state for the right project and why Wyoming needs to be cut-loose from consideration, reserved for something different. But I thought I might put it up a little flag-pole  here and see if anyone else is willing to admit they are thinking along the same lines. . .
more later.

I do not have any such thoughts.  I do have pages of info that explain why WY and ID might be better than NH and AK and much, much better than all other stats for the FREE STATE PROJECT.  I am working on putting it together.  Perhaps, in the next 1-3 weeks, you will see it.  

Also, I am working on gather many more pages of info.  According to national moving trends, people are more likely to move within 2 hours of Wyoming than they are within 2 hours of any of the other states.  In other words, on a national level, Wyoming-like climate does not look bad to people on the move.  In fact, one of the fastest growing areas in the country in the part of northern CO that borders Cheyenne.  This area is expected to go from 3+ million to 5+ million by 2025.  I am talking about huge growth and 100,000s and 100,000s of new jobs for people in Wyoming (if they are only willing to travel 35-65 min. to work.)  Jobs and climate are not poblems in Wyoming.  The climate part has already been shown, see the Climate Reports 1 and 3.  The jobs factor will be show at a later time.
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Robert H.

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Re:Laziness
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2003, 01:55:16 am »

This comment is not meant to be offensive, but I would absolute hate to see this project turn from an emphasis on finding the best state for liberty to finding the most convenient and congenial state for libertarians.

We human beings are largely creatures of habit, and I believe that the manner in which we approach the state choice is highly indicative of how we will pursue the development of a free state once that first choice has been made.  If the free state is chosen on the dual criteria of convenience and congeniality, then that is very likely how activism will take place within that state.

You can judge for yourself our prospects for success based on those two criteria.

Let's be reasonable here.  None of these states is the end of the world (although North Dakota may be close).   ;)  This choice may involve a degree of sacrifice for all of us.  My own support for Wyoming has my family and in-laws concerned.  They live in Virginia and Florida, and Wyoming is not exactly a walk to the corner store from either of those places.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2003, 07:39:40 am by RobertH »
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exitus

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Re:Laziness
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2003, 07:23:33 am »

My message, in the context of laziness fits pretty well, doesn't it?

Don't get me wrong, Wyoming is a strong contender--best state in my estimation; but the numbers have already shown that using the given ratio of 1:62, twenty thousand  activists is overkill for Wyoming.  In fact, less than 8,000 activists is enough for the same amount of saturation as 20,000+ in Idaho.  Using some of Varrin's estimates of activists derived from his experience in California, a ratio of activists of only 1:500 is adequate to begin a serious change in the state, meaning that just 1,000 activists in Wyoming would definitely make a difference -- there probably aren't even 500 libertarian activists in Wyoming right now, yet look at what just the LP alone did to the vote this last election!

---(paragraph removed by exitus 04/03/03)

And while it may be easy to say that people who opt-out of Wyoming or Alaska are the faint of heart, there is a genuine desire among many already to move out of comfortable places like Oregon or Florida to states like Idaho or New Hampshire, which in itself is quite a stretch already, you have to conceed.  Some have suggested that if Wyoming is chosen, the FSP will never succeed.

---(paragraph removed by exitus 04/03/03)
« Last Edit: April 03, 2003, 10:55:51 am by exitus »
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JasonPSorens

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Re:Laziness
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2003, 08:17:37 am »

My observation is that most Americans are pretty lazy nowadays, and that libertarians are generally lazier than most.  That is pretty sad, since what we're considering here with the FSP is hard work in pursuit of one's own interests.  We'll all be happier, wealthier, and freer in the Free State, no matter where that state is located.

It remains to be seen whether there are still enough lions of liberty left in the world to make a difference.  If not, I say those who proclaim their libertarianism but fail to do anything about it deserve their chains.

How's that for a challenge? ;)
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George Reich

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Re:Laziness
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2003, 08:28:29 am »

It remains to be seen whether there are still enough lions of liberty left in the world to make a difference.  If not, I say those who proclaim their libertarianism but fail to do anything about it deserve their chains.

How's that for a challenge? ;)
I'd put the LP members in our western states in that category - they cannot even get their local parties to endorse this project. Pathetic.  ::)
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Elizabeth

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Re:Laziness
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2003, 09:19:19 am »

I have a list of quotes from every single member of the FSP board of directors that has posted here suggesting that Wyoming should not be considered or culled

Really?

At least one Board member has written an article saying that Wyoming is his first choice.

http://www.freestateproject.com/wyoming_20feb03.htm

And as far as I recall, I have never said that Wyoming shoudl be culled, or that it should not be considered.  In fact, I fought *against* reducing states from 10 to 6.  All 10 states are worth considering, IMO.
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Elizabeth

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Re:Laziness
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2003, 09:20:25 am »

I also want to remind Exitus of the following posting guidline:
Quote
Advertising or organizing for activities that violate the FSP's mission statement or the principles of liberty is of course unacceptable anywhere.

Here is our mission statement (emphasis added):
Quote
The Free State Project is a plan in which 20,000 or more liberty-oriented people will move to a single state of the U.S., where they may work within the political system to reduce the size and scope of government. The success of the Free State Project would likely entail reductions in burdensome taxation and regulation, reforms in state and local law, an end to federal mandates, and a restoration of constitutional federalism, demonstrating the benefits of liberty to the rest of the nation and the world.

If you wish to start your own competeing project, please do so!  (Although of course I would be sad.)  But you cannot do it using our resources.
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Robert H.

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Re:Laziness
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2003, 09:48:31 am »

I'd put the LP members in our western states in that category - they cannot even get their local parties to endorse this project. Pathetic.  ::)

I don't know that we really need (or for that matter even want) LP endorsements.  Being endorsed by a group tends to label you, and leaves you less of an opportunity for defining yourself and your message as you see fit.  There's a lot of baggage associated with the LP that we really don't need.

And I don't believe that an endorsement necessarily reflects how organized, effective or serious a given group is about what they're doing.  There are plenty of friendly political groups in this country (both east and west) that have not endorsed us, and many of them are quite well organized and serious about what they do.

Besides, the FSP is not even officially affiliated with the LP.  I don't see that they're under any obligation to endorse us.  Why should they?  To impress us?  I think it's more incumbent upon us to impress them right now.

Elizabeth

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Re:Laziness
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2003, 10:00:50 am »

I agree.  As most of you no doubt know, I am ambivalent at best about the efficacy of the LP.  And if the LP had already demonstrated any significant success, the FSP would not be necessary.  

If we were seeking endorsements, I would rather  see them from issue-based organizations like Citizens for Limited Taxation, or NORML, or The Alternatives To Marriage Project, or such.

However, LP endorsements offer one advantage, which is that they make clear for LP members who are concerned about "disloyalty" that at least some party affiliates do *not* consider us competition, as National seems to, and as activists like Aaron Biterman have accused us of being.

(edited for typos)
« Last Edit: April 03, 2003, 10:01:23 am by Elizabeth »
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exitus

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Re:Laziness
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2003, 10:47:40 am »


My observation is that most Americans are pretty lazy nowadays, and that libertarians are generally lazier than most.
Ouch!

I'd put the LP members in our western states in that category - they cannot even get their local parties to endorse this project. Pathetic.  ::)
:'(

Really?
I really thought I did, but I was mistaken. I should be more careful, reading it all again, I realize that despite having strong opinions on various issues, Elizabeth is to be commended for keeping the wording of her statements neutral concerning the selection of any certain state and demonstrates a focus on the success of this project.

I also want to remind Exitus of the following posting guidline:
Quote
Advertising or organizing for activities that violate the FSP's mission statement or the principles of liberty is of course unacceptable anywhere.

Then I will remove that post.  I originaly intended it to be hypothetical, but through my growing frustration over the reasons for the outright rejection of Wyoming by so many (including myself at one time) makes me think less of the prospects of our attaining complete success at attaining a truly free state, I guess I went way too far in my example.


If you wish to start your own competeing project, please do so!  (Although of course I would be sad.)  But you cannot do it using our resources.
My life, family and fortune are tied to the FSP through my signing of the Statement of Intent.  Too late now, I'm afraid. (assuming I lacked the laziness referred to by Jason above and had even half the ambition of those who spear-headed the FSP.)

Quote
(Although of course I would be sad.)
If any of that sadness you would have upon my leaving is directed towards me, the person you know as exitus, I would have to say that is the nicest thing anyone has said to me all day!


« Last Edit: April 08, 2003, 12:36:56 pm by exitus »
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Elizabeth

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Re:Laziness
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2003, 10:53:21 am »

Quote
(Although of course I would be sad.)
If any of that sadness you would have upon my leaving is directed towards me, the person you know as exitus, I would have to say that is the nicest thing anyone has said to me all day!

I respect anyone who spends as much time as you do thinking about the best way for the FSP to succeed.  I would consider your departure a loss indeed.
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