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Author Topic: The Amish as a model?  (Read 15859 times)

Alli

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Re: The Amish as a model?
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2008, 12:07:10 am »

Wow how weird.  While I was washing the dishes up this evening I was thinking of an Amish-style-Porcupine community and trying to figure out how a bunch of independent minded people would join a collective to get off the grid and be self-sufficient.

My current job demands me to be engrossed in politics/current affairs as the company is a public opinion/research firm.  As such I am very concerned about an escalating situation with Iran started by Israel which then brings in our country, then Russia and China would side with Iran, China would call in all the money they have lent us, which would collapse our economy and then waking up to a country wholly different than we know even today, where the proverbial shit has hit the fan.

And I just cannot shake this feeling.  I never bought into the whole y2k thing and maybe because my job at the time was as a Network Administrator so I was well versed in all things techy and perhaps I am just being paranoid.  Maybe it is because my partner and I have two boys and we fear them inheriting a radically different country in the negative than we knew/know.

So my partner and I spoke today about maybe trying to set up a farm with other porcupines/ possible friends coming with and trying to be Amish like, except with technology.  And so my mind began racing about solar panels and how do we get water, we should have a  cow and some chickens, and what about bathrooms and blah blah blah.

J’raxis 270145

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Re: The Amish as a model?
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2008, 03:21:10 am »

Wow how weird.  While I was washing the dishes up this evening I was thinking of an Amish-style-Porcupine community and trying to figure out how a bunch of independent minded people would join a collective to get off the grid and be self-sufficient.

My current job demands me to be engrossed in politics/current affairs as the company is a public opinion/research firm.  As such I am very concerned about an escalating situation with Iran started by Israel which then brings in our country, then Russia and China would side with Iran, China would call in all the money they have lent us, which would collapse our economy and then waking up to a country wholly different than we know even today, where the proverbial shit has hit the fan.

And I just cannot shake this feeling.  I never bought into the whole y2k thing and maybe because my job at the time was as a Network Administrator so I was well versed in all things techy and perhaps I am just being paranoid.  Maybe it is because my partner and I have two boys and we fear them inheriting a radically different country in the negative than we knew/know.

So my partner and I spoke today about maybe trying to set up a farm with other porcupines/ possible friends coming with and trying to be Amish like, except with technology.  And so my mind began racing about solar panels and how do we get water, we should have a  cow and some chickens, and what about bathrooms and blah blah blah.

Sounds to me like you might want to look into settling in Grafton. Lots of cheap land, middle of nowhere, and lots of freestaters.

Also check out this project in Barnstead. It’s not run by freestaters, but a few have been interested in what they’re trying to do out there.
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John Edward Mercier

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Re: The Amish as a model?
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2008, 06:23:52 am »

This can be achieved individually or with a neighborhood in many locations in NH, and is somewhat of a norm in northern NH were weather-related events can be quite enlightening.
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cathleeninnh

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Re: The Amish as a model?
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2008, 06:35:38 am »

Your concerns are shared by many. We have a terrific community of support here. As it approaches the collective, most get wary. Therefore there are many different ways we are preparing for different possibilities. Just getting here and plugging in to the group will energize you.

I suggest that you don't commit to a vision before getting here. Come on out and meet the good folks and see what kinds of things we are dealing with. We can help pave the way.

My husband and I have been here 4 years now. The first year we were in Manchester scoping the situation and seriously job hunting. Then for two years we were recouping the financial drain of the year off work. Last summer we committed to building a passive solar home and bought property. Construction is now underway.

I look forward to meeting you both! And the boys too!
Cathleen
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Keyser Soce

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Re: The Amish as a model?
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2008, 12:10:14 pm »

Wow how weird.  While I was washing the dishes up this evening I was thinking of an Amish-style-Porcupine community and trying to figure out how a bunch of independent minded people would join a collective to get off the grid and be self-sufficient.

My current job demands me to be engrossed in politics/current affairs as the company is a public opinion/research firm.  As such I am very concerned about an escalating situation with Iran started by Israel which then brings in our country, then Russia and China would side with Iran, China would call in all the money they have lent us, which would collapse our economy and then waking up to a country wholly different than we know even today, where the proverbial shit has hit the fan.

And I just cannot shake this feeling.  I never bought into the whole y2k thing and maybe because my job at the time was as a Network Administrator so I was well versed in all things techy and perhaps I am just being paranoid.  Maybe it is because my partner and I have two boys and we fear them inheriting a radically different country in the negative than we knew/know.

So my partner and I spoke today about maybe trying to set up a farm with other porcupines/ possible friends coming with and trying to be Amish like, except with technology.  And so my mind began racing about solar panels and how do we get water, we should have a  cow and some chickens, and what about bathrooms and blah blah blah.

Sounds to me like you might want to look into settling in Grafton. Lots of cheap land, middle of nowhere, and lots of freestaters.

Also check out this project in Barnstead. It’s not run by freestaters, but a few have been interested in what they’re trying to do out there.

I just spent a couple of days at Bruce's place. It's got a lot of potential but I'm waiting to scope out Grafton at the burning rodent before making a decision. I love the idea and see lots of support for it.
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CNHT

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Re: The Amish as a model?
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2008, 09:49:45 pm »

In my opinion, they are consummate role models of simplicity, sustainability, and
compassionate service to the earth community.

Well that's nice but you are making them sound like UN liberals to me. I think it's more their religious practice than anything else.

Here in NH we are unabashed capitalists and consumers and we make no excuses for it.  :-)
We like to make money, support ourselves, reduce government programs, and then have a good time.

CNHT

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Re: The Amish as a model?
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2008, 09:51:10 pm »

Wow how weird.  While I was washing the dishes up this evening I was thinking of an Amish-style-Porcupine community and trying to figure out how a bunch of independent minded people would join a collective to get off the grid and be self-sufficient.

My current job demands me to be engrossed in politics/current affairs as the company is a public opinion/research firm.  As such I am very concerned about an escalating situation with Iran started by Israel which then brings in our country, then Russia and China would side with Iran, China would call in all the money they have lent us, which would collapse our economy and then waking up to a country wholly different than we know even today, where the proverbial shit has hit the fan.

And I just cannot shake this feeling.  I never bought into the whole y2k thing and maybe because my job at the time was as a Network Administrator so I was well versed in all things techy and perhaps I am just being paranoid.  Maybe it is because my partner and I have two boys and we fear them inheriting a radically different country in the negative than we knew/know.

So my partner and I spoke today about maybe trying to set up a farm with other porcupines/ possible friends coming with and trying to be Amish like, except with technology.  And so my mind began racing about solar panels and how do we get water, we should have a  cow and some chickens, and what about bathrooms and blah blah blah.


In general, Porcupines are not 'collectivists'. Of course some prefer to live this way, but it's totally a choice, not a necessity.

pstudier

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Re: The Amish as a model?
« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2008, 10:56:05 pm »



I recoil at its gender roles and divisions of
labor according to gender, as well as the enormous size of families
in the community, parents typically producing eight to ten children.

In my opinion,
they are consummate role models of simplicity, sustainability, and
compassionate service to the earth community.

No lifestyle which includes families of eight or ten children is sustainable.  Simple arithmetic. First generation 2 parents, second generation 8-10 children, third generation 64 to 100 grand children, fourth generation 512 to 1000 great grand children.



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John Edward Mercier

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Re: The Amish as a model?
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2008, 07:17:37 am »

I don't think the Amish are actually collectivist... just share a common religion.
I'm under the impression that they each own their own farm...
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sj

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Re: The Amish as a model?
« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2008, 09:58:30 am »



I recoil at its gender roles and divisions of
labor according to gender, as well as the enormous size of families
in the community, parents typically producing eight to ten children.

In my opinion,
they are consummate role models of simplicity, sustainability, and
compassionate service to the earth community.

No lifestyle which includes families of eight or ten children is sustainable.  Simple arithmetic. First generation 2 parents, second generation 8-10 children, third generation 64 to 100 grand children, fourth generation 512 to 1000 great grand children.





Well, the 2.1 children that Americans are having is leaving us short and we're having to import labor from the rest of the world.  The Amish, from what I've seen of them, are happy and their lifestyle has sustained itself for a quarter millennium.
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rossby

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Re: The Amish as a model?
« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2008, 10:11:42 am »


No lifestyle which includes families of eight or ten children is sustainable.  Simple arithmetic. First generation 2 parents, second generation 8-10 children, third generation 64 to 100 grand children, fourth generation 512 to 1000 great grand children.


That really depends on what you mean by sustainability. Even a family of 3 children eventually leads to the same growth problem. Any birth rate above the replacement rate will lead to a very high population. That's the power of exponential growth. We never know the replacement rate of course. In any population, certain individuals will die before they can have children. Some people just won't be able to have children.

In times past, drought, famine, disease, and war have, kept our population in check. Fortunately for us now living, we've been inhabiting a very stable zone in which these things haven't been a problem for human survival. Large portion of this is due to our current level of technology and developed infrastructure--that most people don't understand and would die without. Our modern American lifestyle is "sustainable" for society-at-large so long as certain gears keeping turning. Only time will tell if the Amish lifestyle is comparatively sustainable.
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John Edward Mercier

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Re: The Amish as a model?
« Reply #26 on: July 28, 2008, 10:19:37 am »

Well, the 2.1 children that Americans are having is leaving us short and we're having to import labor from the rest of the world.  The Amish, from what I've seen of them, are happy and their lifestyle has sustained itself for a quarter millennium.

The US has to import labor?
My family is happy in their lifestyle... and its sustained us from prehistoric times. ;D
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sj

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Re: The Amish as a model?
« Reply #27 on: July 28, 2008, 12:57:09 pm »

Well, the 2.1 children that Americans are having is leaving us short and we're having to import labor from the rest of the world.  The Amish, from what I've seen of them, are happy and their lifestyle has sustained itself for a quarter millennium.

The US has to import labor?
My family is happy in their lifestyle... and its sustained us from prehistoric times. ;D

I think I might not have made myself clear.  I was just saying that large families aren't a bad thing.
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KBCraig

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Re: The Amish as a model?
« Reply #28 on: August 03, 2008, 12:58:26 am »

In my opinion, they are consummate role models of simplicity, sustainability, and
compassionate service to the earth community.

Well that's nice but you are making them sound like UN liberals to me. I think it's more their religious practice than anything else.

Here in NH we are unabashed capitalists and consumers and we make no excuses for it.  :-)
We like to make money, support ourselves, reduce government programs, and then have a good time.

I don't think the Amish are different at all: they're incredibly capitalistic, taking a very profitable advantage of demand for their products, and shifting production to new products as the market changes. They support themselves, ignore government programs, and have a good time by their own definition.

They also save, and pay with cash. Where "English" American 18 year old men typically have a few hundred to their names and are looking at tens of thousands in student loans, Amish of the same age have thousands in savings, plus thousands more in net worth (livestock, vehicles, real estate, etc.)

I could never be Amish for religious reasons, but I certainly admire their self-sufficiency. Same goes for their cousins, the Mennonites, who are very common where I live.

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pstudier

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Re: The Amish as a model?
« Reply #29 on: August 15, 2008, 10:51:30 pm »


No lifestyle which includes families of eight or ten children is sustainable.  Simple arithmetic. First generation 2 parents, second generation 8-10 children, third generation 64 to 100 grand children, fourth generation 512 to 1000 great grand children.


Well, the 2.1 children that Americans are having is leaving us short and we're having to import labor from the rest of the world.  The Amish, from what I've seen of them, are happy and their lifestyle has sustained itself for a quarter millennium.

No, it has not.  Good article in the August 15 Wall Street Journal, page W1.  It is about the Amish hiring themselves out to build buildings, and the culture clash.  Excerpt: About 20 years ago, the Amish started to diversify out of farming when it became clear that subdividing a farm among sons wasn't sustainable as their population grew and land costs made buying new property prohibitive.  It goes on to say that 70% of Amish household heads pursue nonfarm lines of work. They are no longer able to maintain their isolation.



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