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Author Topic: Ed & Elaine Brown's Fall Freedom Festival September 15, 2007  (Read 15062 times)

yoplait

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Re: Ed & Elaine Brown's Fall Freedom Festival September 15, 2007
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2007, 09:16:56 pm »

I'm not sure this idea will have an enthusiastic embrace, but what about actually paying taxes and not going to prison or taking a bullet to the head?  Seems like a real no-brainer to me.  Then again, I'm free to leave my property.  Just a thought...


Yeah, the threat of violence is a big motivator...it's why most people go along with what they're told, with a few exceptions like Washington, Jefferson, MLK, Ghandi, etc.  Someone who chooses not to pay their taxes is definitely not doing it for the money. 

But I pay my taxes (the threat of violence seems as convincing to me as it is to you) so I'm not one to sit and judge.  It doesn't mean I don't want things to go back to classic Americanism...the way the country was founded.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2007, 09:19:19 pm by yoplait »
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CA_Libertarian

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Re: Ed & Elaine Brown's Fall Freedom Festival September 15, 2007
« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2007, 12:25:25 pm »

I'm not sure this idea will have an enthusiastic embrace, but what about actually paying taxes and not going to prison or taking a bullet to the head?  Seems like a real no-brainer to me.  Then again, I'm free to leave my property.  Just a thought...

I'll chat again after the weekend is over.  I'm taking a motorcycle trip...without Marshalls, IRS agents, UAV's, or black helicopters.

Regardless of if you think the income tax is constitutional or not, you must look at the situation in this way: the Browns view it as a violation of their constitutional rights.  Many people agree with them, but very few are willing to actually stand up for that right.

It is as simple as this: you feel your right to take a motorcycle trip (without fear of arrest or death by government agents) is more important than your right to keep the money you earn.  It is sad that we each have to choose between the two freedoms.

It is even more sad that the rare few who are willing to make a stand for their rights (and ours) get ridiculed.  However, such is the way of the world.  I'm sure there were people like you who thumbed their noses at American revolutionaries who "just didn't want to pay their taxes" to England.
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LibertyforLife

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Re: Ed & Elaine Brown's Fall Freedom Festival September 15, 2007
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2007, 09:50:10 am »

Its interesting, I was reading the word religion and what it means, to wit, a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. If it is my 'set of beliefs' that it is immoral to give up that which is mine to someone with a gun pointed at me, is it not a violation of the 'freedom of religion' clause of the Constitution?

I'm not looking to 'get of paying taxes'. Firstly I don't believe its constitutional. Second I don't believe the law says what they believe they think it says. Third its immoral for the judge, jury, plaintiff, prosicutor, and defendant's council, all to work for the same company. Fourth, I don't care what you believe. I refuse to accept you as my master and you can sit and spin for all I care.

If you want to put me in jail, by all means do so. I'll stop eating. You want to feed me by IV, I will make every attempt to remove it any chance I get. I promise to be the most uncoopertive person you'll ever want to meet. If I survive jail, I'll go right back to doing what I did to get in jail. See, jail doesn't work on me. Fines don't work on me, I won't pay them. When fines don't work, and jail doesn't work, then what will you use against me Mr. G-Man? Violance? Go ahead beat the crap out of me, bring me to death, it really doesn't effect me. I've lost my fear of you.

When you come before your God for judgement, he will find you wanting. Thats what I think about and laugh. When you force people against their will to do something they would rather not do, you are no better then any Hitler, Stalin, or any one of a thousand other men who will find themselves standing before their God and told, 'Sorry, there is no room for you here'.

Sorry, I'm tired and ranting. Please forgive me.
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Freedom-Isnt-Free

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Re: Ed & Elaine Brown's Fall Freedom Festival September 15, 2007
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2007, 09:00:01 am »

First let me state that I am by no means a fan of the federal income tax.  I find it reprehensible that the government has the ability to profit from my labor and the risk of my financial capital.  The government has a very sweet deal...they benefit from our success, but completely disappear when we financially fail.  That said, I am a member of this society.  I want the traffic lights to operate, and I want the police to enforce stopping at a red light. Even if I find it annoying and inconvenient. That costs money.  How do we pay for such societal order, but through taxation?  Let's face it...the voluntary utopia of anarchy is about as fallacious as the utopia of communism, so government controlled rules and order is a requirement.

As far as the income tax is concerned, I don't like it.  I believe its foundation and origination is sketchy at best. But to insist that it does not exist, and is not here to stay is given the same reception as a UFO conspiracy theory.  What's worse, is that the cause for which you (and to a lesser degree, me) fight took a tremendous set-back with Ed and Elaine Brown.  I'm one of a very few people who actually attended their trial.  I was not there everyday, but I did go.  (No, I am not a reporter, prosecutor, or law enforcement).  The old cliche that "A person who represents themselves has a fool for a client" is exceedingly true and was brilliantly demonstrated by Mr. Brown.  What could have been a showcase of the cause for individual freedom became a circus side-show.  The Brown's advanced absolutely nothing, except their acceleration to a violent confrontation.  They are not "Randy Weaver", not are they "Waco."

Then again, this is just my opinion...and we all know the cliche about opinions.
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LibertyforLife

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Re: Ed & Elaine Brown's Fall Freedom Festival September 15, 2007
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2007, 09:33:28 am »

I'm not trying to argue, but if you want police, then fine, you pay for them. I for one do not need them nor want them, and as their service is neither wanted by me nor needed by me, I don't should not to have to pay for them. Their only purpose is to collect taxes for the services they offer. The Supreme Court has ruled time and time again police have no legal obligation to do anything for you as an individual, yet you are required to bend over and take it up the bung hole if they should so order you to do so. You can't do anything about it. No compensation, no punishment, nothing will be done to government officials when they do something that a non-governmental person would do.

As for stop lights, an arguement could be made that they actually cause more accidents then they prevent. Why would you want something like that? My mother used to work for the State DOT, each 3 light assembly costs $3000 a piece and that doesn't include the $70/hour install charge, nor the time and half they'll get paid because they fix it outside 'normal' business hours.

Anarchy isn't utopia. Anyone who even claims such a thing is a liar. Is it better then what we have? You better believe it. I get to choose who my protection service is. If they fail to meet their contract or do something that violates my rights, I can haul their ass in court and get some compensation. Can't get that same compensation from my current government overseers.

If I wanted that neat little stop light, I could pay the owner a usage fee for using his road, if I don't like his fees I can choose another road to take. The roads would be better maintained, and newer technologies could be used, like my car driving me to work and letting me get a little more sleep during my commute.

There is a market solution for every single 'service' that government offers, its private market solution is cheaper, more inovative, and above all, 100% volentary. I don't have to live every day of my life wondering when I'm going to die because of government's inability to do anything worth what I'm forced to pay by the point of a gun.
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Freedom-Isnt-Free

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Re: Ed & Elaine Brown's Fall Freedom Festival September 15, 2007
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2007, 10:12:49 am »

No...please argue!  Do your best to convince me that your position is correct.  That is how free people exchange ideas.

In your own argument, however, you've documented the necessity of government... i.e. you'll haul their butts into court if they breach your contract.  Anarchies have no courts.  Let's assume for the moment that courts do exist in an anarchy.  Who will enforce the court's order?  If there are no enforcers, who will bother to abide by a courts order?  The real quandry is the enforcement itself.  Do you resort to "self-help" and take someone else's property pursuant to a court order?  Aren't you then depriving that other person of their property against there will?  perhaps they seek to prevent a "theft" and shoot at you...you'll shoot back.  All that is left is determining which of you is a Hatfield and which is a Macoy.

Let me get back to our common ground. While I believe government is necessary....I also believe it has vastly over-stepped its original role to preserve freedom.  If your premise is to roll back government, then we stand allied.  If your premise is to eradicate government, then you stand alone.
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Keyser Soce

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Re: Ed & Elaine Brown's Fall Freedom Festival September 15, 2007
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2007, 11:59:29 am »

So it's just a question of how far we want to roll it back? I vote we keep rolling until things like this aren't happening.

http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/14112594/detail.html
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"In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man; brave, hated, and scorned. When his cause succeeds however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." -- Mark Twain

Freedom-Isnt-Free

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Re: Ed & Elaine Brown's Fall Freedom Festival September 15, 2007
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2007, 01:32:26 pm »

How do you roll government back so stuff like doesn't happen?  I haven't a clue.  But I think a great start is to send Mr. Jensen some money to pursue a law suit!! 
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John C

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Re: Ed & Elaine Brown's Fall Freedom Festival September 15, 2007
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2007, 02:26:41 pm »

  How do we pay for such societal order, but through taxation?  Let's face it...the voluntary utopia of anarchy is about as fallacious as the utopia of communism, so government controlled rules and order is a requirement.

As far as the income tax is concerned, I don't like it.  I believe its foundation and origination is sketchy at best. But to insist that it does not exist, and is not here to stay is given the same reception as a UFO conspiracy theory. 




Here we go again.
Why do you people join a forum that is clearly based on freedoms and libertarian views and then try to convince us we need the things we are trying to get away from.

I see that you just joined and have made four posts so far. Not one introducing yourself by saying "Hello, I'm from....."  but all four trying to convince us we need taxes.
I don't get it? Why not join the Democratic Underground forum? Why join a freedom based forum?
Are you just Trolling?
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Freedom-Isnt-Free

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Re: Ed & Elaine Brown's Fall Freedom Festival September 15, 2007
« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2007, 02:41:36 pm »

Hi John C.,

My name is Mike and I live in New Hampshire.  I have lived in New Hampshire since 1986 after leaving the Peoples Republic of California and serving 4 years in the military. 

I'm not quite sure why you are stepping up and trying to flame me for my opinion, but if you were to carefully read what I've written, I'm not trying to convince you of anything.  I call it public discourse.  If you would prefer to have everyone in your community to march in lock-step with YOUR opinions, then what have you accomplished?

I am a Libertarian at heart.  I believe that the drafters of our Constituition were brilliant men.  I, too, believe that our current system of government is socialist, not a democratic republic.  The questions I ask, are not about political philosophy and idle rhetoric as much as they are about the logistics of implementing a true democratic republic.  Is it possible to "roll back" government, or are we currently experiencing the 'fourth season" of society of which Jefferson spoke and for which there is only one course of action?

Contemplate the words and cease with the ad hominem argument.
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CA_Libertarian

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Re: Ed & Elaine Brown's Fall Freedom Festival September 15, 2007
« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2007, 03:53:40 pm »

John C,

Since I have introduced myself in other posts and since I have enough posts on this forum to express my opinion, I will:

Without courts, the laws will be ignored - contracts will be meaningless.  Without enforcers, the courts will be pointless.

I am for extremely limited government and extremely limited taxation.  I think there are very few things a government can achieve better than the free market.  One of those few functions is to ensure the market is indeed free by protecting the rights of individuals.

While I will work to limit the role of government, I do not desire anarchy.  I think you err by portraying anarchy as the only 'free' solution.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2007, 03:56:16 pm by CA_Libertarian »
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The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of his country; but he that stands it NOW deserves the love and thanks of man and woman.
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John C

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Re: Ed & Elaine Brown's Fall Freedom Festival September 15, 2007
« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2007, 04:59:23 pm »

Hi John C.,

My name is Mike and I live in New Hampshire.  I have lived in New Hampshire since 1986 after leaving the Peoples Republic of California and serving 4 years in the military. 

I'm not quite sure why you are stepping up and trying to flame me for my opinion, but if you were to carefully read what I've written, I'm not trying to convince you of anything.  I call it public discourse.  If you would prefer to have everyone in your community to march in lock-step with YOUR opinions, then what have you accomplished?

I am a Libertarian at heart.  I believe that the drafters of our Constituition were brilliant men.  I, too, believe that our current system of government is socialist, not a democratic republic.  The questions I ask, are not about political philosophy and idle rhetoric as much as they are about the logistics of implementing a true democratic republic.  Is it possible to "roll back" government, or are we currently experiencing the 'fourth season" of society of which Jefferson spoke and for which there is only one course of action?

Contemplate the words and cease with the ad hominem argument.

Sorry,
I do tend to be a bit high strung. I have to watch that, no hard feelings?

While I would like to see a big "roll back", I doubt I ever will.


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John C

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Re: Ed & Elaine Brown's Fall Freedom Festival September 15, 2007
« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2007, 05:10:43 pm »

John C,

Since I have introduced myself in other posts and since I have enough posts on this forum to express my opinion, I will:

Without courts, the laws will be ignored - contracts will be meaningless.  Without enforcers, the courts will be pointless.

I am for extremely limited government and extremely limited taxation.  I think there are very few things a government can achieve better than the free market.  One of those few functions is to ensure the market is indeed free by protecting the rights of individuals.

While I will work to limit the role of government, I do not desire anarchy.  I think you err by portraying anarchy as the only 'free' solution.

I agree, you have been around for a tad bit longer. :-)
I don't think my post was portraying anarchy? If I did, that is not what I meant.
I agree with your post. "extremely limited government and extremely limited taxation.  I think there are very few things a government can achieve better than the free market.  One of those few functions is to ensure the market is indeed free by protecting the rights of individuals."
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Freedom-Isnt-Free

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Re: Ed & Elaine Brown's Fall Freedom Festival September 15, 2007
« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2007, 05:41:49 pm »

Hi Again,

No hard feelings at all, John.  I apologize for diving right in without properly introducing myself and for not observing the apparant customary probation period for newbies.  I'm willing to bet we have far more in common than not.

Mike
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J’raxis 270145

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Re: Ed & Elaine Brown's Fall Freedom Festival September 15, 2007
« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2007, 07:21:21 pm »

  How do we pay for such societal order, but through taxation?  Let's face it...the voluntary utopia of anarchy is about as fallacious as the utopia of communism, so government controlled rules and order is a requirement.

As far as the income tax is concerned, I don't like it.  I believe its foundation and origination is sketchy at best. But to insist that it does not exist, and is not here to stay is given the same reception as a UFO conspiracy theory. 

Here we go again.
Why do you people join a forum that is clearly based on freedoms and libertarian views and then try to convince us we need the things we are trying to get away from.

I see that you just joined and have made four posts so far. Not one introducing yourself by saying "Hello, I'm from....."  but all four trying to convince us we need taxes.
I don't get it? Why not join the Democratic Underground forum? Why join a freedom based forum?
Are you just Trolling?

He’s obviously not an anarchist, and probably not even a minarchist, but he certainly sounds libertarian enough. This is supposed to be a “big tent” movement, remember?

And as far as the income tax and Ed Brown’s situation, I think he’s right. The income tax is legal, regardless of whether or not it’s wrong. I support what Ed Brown’s doing now, but I wish he hadn’t gone the “income tax is illegal” route to justify his refusal to pay. Along with all the other conspiracy theories he’s brought up, it really makes him look a bit crazy.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2007, 07:27:59 pm by J’raxis 270145 »
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