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Author Topic: "paying own way"?  (Read 20123 times)

margomaps

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Re: "paying own way"?
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2007, 12:50:17 pm »

Do I believe we need a lot less Govt? Yes. Do I believe that the Govt sticks its "nose" into citizens business? Yes. Do I believe that we need to be less dependent on some Govt agencies? Yes. I was simply asking a question based on what I've read on another website, to see if everybody was as radical as this member seems to be. Do I support the Mission of the Free State Project? YES. I truly believe that we as Americans need to stand up for our freedoms and liberties.

Awesome!  I think your ideas fit in well with the FSP's mission.  I hope you decide to join the project, move to NH, and help make the state more free.

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But, we also need to pay taxes to defend this Nation from others. We need to pay the soldiers that are defending this country here and abroad every day. And buy the things that they need to do their jobs. This member is totally against taxes and other things that I see as a necessity to maintain this country as a peaceful place to live.

There is a lot of debate amongst the FSP members (and int the libertarian community at large) about how much government is needed.  Some want a return of the government to its constitutionally-mandated role.  Others want to go much further and strip government down to the tiniest of roles.

As for your point about funding the military, there's a lot of debate on that subject as well.  Many libertarians would argue that if our foreign policy weren't so interventionist, we'd have vastly fewer enemies, and thus have less of a need to spend as much on the military.  However, I'd also wager that most libertarians do view funding the defense of our country as one of the 'acceptable' taxes.  Plenty of debate on just how much it needs to be funded though!

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I am sorry if I offended anyone with my question, it was just wondering about the stance of the members as a whole.

I don't think you offended anyone.  You may have inadvertantly pressed a few people's button on this issue though.  :)
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Quantrill

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« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2007, 02:22:57 pm »

The way I look at it is this:  Gov't "assistance" programs are unnecessary and cruel.  I say cruel because there are so many people who get caught up in finding "free money" from the gov't and they neglect their own families in the process.  There is no incentive to work, educate yourself, take care of your children etc... when the state will do this for you.  These people then become dependent on the welfare state and the cycle continues with their children. 

While I would love for all those programs to be abolished overnight, I don't think that is feasible right now.  Unfortunately, most Americans have been "weaned" off their freedoms and are completely ill-prepared to take care of themselves and their family.  So instead of saying "No more medicaid.  You're on your own."  We should be cutting these programs bit by bit, helping these people out through private organizations and encouraging people to become more self-sufficient.  "Wean" them off gov't help, so to speak.

People in New Hampshire seem to be a fairly independent bunch and there was a Bill (not sure if it passed or has gone through the senate yet) that would ACTIVELY LOOK FOR PEOPLE TO GET ON GOV'T ASSISTANCE!  Apparently there weren't enough people receiving gov't help so they felt the need to recruit people to become wards of the state.  Ridiculous, if you ask me.

Do I fault people for receiving gov't help?  Not usually.  When my sister had a kid she had him put on whatever type of medical insurance is available for newborns (medicaid, medicare, i don't know).  But she refused to accept medical insurance for herself.  Her line of thinking was:  "I can't afford insurance for myself, but that's my fault.  My baby shouldn't have to suffer because I can't afford insurance for him."  I have no problem with this line of thinking.  Do what you have to, but PLEASE don't become totally dependent on gov't help.  Don't forget that the money for these programs are payed for by everyone, regardless of whether or not they use the system. 

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sj

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Re: "paying own way"?
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2007, 04:19:35 pm »

Do I believe we need a lot less Govt? Yes. Do I believe that the Govt sticks its "nose" into citizens business? Yes. Do I believe that we need to be less dependent on some Govt agencies? Yes. I was simply asking a question based on what I've read on another website, to see if everybody was as radical as this member seems to be. Do I support the Mission of the Free State Project? YES. I truly believe that we as Americans need to stand up for our freedoms and liberties.

But, we also need to pay taxes to defend this Nation from others. We need to pay the soldiers that are defending this country here and abroad every day. And buy the things that they need to do their jobs. This member is totally against taxes and other things that I see as a necessity to maintain this country as a peaceful place to live.

I am sorry if I offended anyone with my question, it was just wondering about the stance of the members as a whole.

Sounds like you agree on the important points.  You won't agree with all members on everything (or else it'd be boring right? :)).  From what I've seen, you and the FSP would probably be a good fit.  Hope to meet you there one day.

I don't think you offended anyone.  Most on this board like to debate though, so feel free to jump in.
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lloydbob1

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Re: "paying own way"?
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2007, 06:06:55 pm »


Simple equation: on one side, most of us want a lot less government involvement; on the other side you seem to be fishing for support of government involvement in a particular area.  It is not hard to see tension between the two sides of this equation.

Do I believe we need a lot less Govt? Yes. Do I believe that the Govt sticks its "nose" into citizens business? Yes. Do I believe that we need to be less dependent on some Govt agencies? Yes. I was simply asking a question based on what I've read on another website, to see if everybody was as radical as this member seems to be. Do I support the Mission of the Free State Project? YES. I truly believe that we as Americans need to stand up for our freedoms and liberties.

But, we also need to pay taxes to defend this Nation from others. We need to pay the soldiers that are defending this country here and abroad every day. And buy the things that they need to do their jobs. This member is totally against taxes and other things that I see as a necessity to maintain this country as a peaceful place to live.

I am sorry if I offended anyone with my question, it was just wondering about the stance of the members as a whole.

You would be hard pressed to offend anyone on this forum.  Do to the government inventing nukes and supplying the rest of the world with them and the knowledge to deliver them to us there is some argument for defense.  Developing an effective anti-missile system and keeping the missile subs might work.  I would disband all of the other military.  Needless to say no military in any other country.
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Ogre

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Re: "paying own way"?
« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2007, 10:21:57 am »

As others have mentioned, you're going to find a very wide variety of opinions from the members of the FSP.

As for government-provided welfare, my personal opinion begs a question: what in the world did people do before the government invented welfare?  That's where the solutions lie, in my opinion (and yes, I know the answer, it's a rhetorical question).

And the radical tax position -- I'm finding more and more the "keyword" in politics is "compromise."  If you want to get anywhere, you have to "compromise."  So, if 0 is neutral and positive numbers are more statist and negative numbers are freedom-based, compromise will be somewhere between the two positions.  So if I favor a -5 freedom position, the statists will plan for compromise -- they'll take a position at 25 to get compromise: 15.  In order to go with compromise, now I have to take a position of -25 just to remain neutral.  So I think we're seeing more radical positions stated in order to allow "compromise" to actually move a little bit towards freedom.

Then again, the FSP does boast some members who are total anarchists, too.  :)
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cigarlover

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Re: "paying own way"?
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2008, 07:18:58 pm »

Im new here but wanted to throw in a couple pennies worth on an old subject. In my view everyone can get off of these federal programs a lot faster when they stop stealing our money from us on a regular basis. I know I could do a lot more with the 18k a year they steal in taxes than they do with it. With that extra money every year I would never need a helping hand from Uncle sam. The way I see it now is they take all of my extra money and leave me with little to invest. I would much prefer to fund my own retirement and live my life free than rely on them to have some program in place if I ever needed it.
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Power Penguin

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Re: "paying own way"?
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2008, 07:52:12 pm »

Just stop paying them! I don't, whenever possible.
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Russell Kanning

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Re: "paying own way"?
« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2008, 08:53:36 pm »

But, we also need to pay taxes to defend this Nation from others. We need to pay the soldiers that are defending this country here and abroad every day. And buy the things that they need to do their jobs. This member is totally against taxes and other things that I see as a necessity to maintain this country as a peaceful place to live.
You might want to do that sort of thing, but what happens when I don't want to? What do you think this country should do to me if I decide to stop paying taxes to pay for all of those activities?
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lloydbob1

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Re: "paying own way"?
« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2008, 09:29:56 pm »

Put you in jail at a cost of 30-50K per year ;D
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maxxoccupancy

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Re: "paying own way"?
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2008, 09:34:49 pm »

Muni jails, I think, are 29K.  State prison is $25K.

I know that from the fiscal impact of some of the bills being proposed.
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Russell Kanning

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Re: "paying own way"?
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2008, 09:39:57 pm »

He's talking fed taxes for fed guns baby ... that's like $280 a day ... maybe cheaper when they get you down to texarkana.

I'm with you Lloyd ... it is sortof disturbing when someone's first posts on this forum concern how we will react when he goes on welfare.
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The NH Underground - "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -Mahatma Gandhi
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MikeLindgren

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Re: "paying own way"?
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2008, 10:10:37 pm »

Instead of building "mega churches" like we have here in the Southeast, perhaps humanitarian organisations, and such should pick up the slack, and actually help people financially rather than build 20,000+ member "Jesus Domes" with massive Television budgets, and have pastors driving Lamborghinis(true story), and contribute to the poor. If your church can afford a 100+ million dollar facility, your church COULD have afforded to offer financial aid to those needing to get on their feet. This shouldn't be the government's job, it shouldn't come out of my pocket or yours.

In my opinion it shows a misallocation of resources, a self-serving nature, and a grand example of exactly why the government is stepping in to steal from me to pay the poor.

Because rather than live up to principle, it's far more convenient for said pastor to live in a 13-million-dollar mansion (tax free) and let me pick up the tab for his lack of charitable donations.

I am poor enough as it is, and no governmental body has stepped in to save me.

I wonder how many programs were in place to help the colonial poor in the infancy of the Republic...
« Last Edit: January 16, 2008, 10:12:23 pm by MikeLindgren »
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lloydbob1

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Re: "paying own way"?
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2008, 10:14:13 pm »

He's talking fed taxes for fed guns baby ... that's like $280 a day ... maybe cheaper when they get you down to texarkana.

I'm with you Lloyd ... it is sortof disturbing when someone's first posts on this forum concern how we will react when he goes on welfare.

Where did that guy go? ;D
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maxxoccupancy

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Re: "paying own way"?
« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2008, 01:00:31 am »

Hey, there's no shame in working the system if you're working to change the system.  If the guv of luv is going to pay you while you work to downsize it, hey, nothing wrong with that.  It would be great to get some guy testifying in the General Court about how many things are wrong with the nanny state.

I'd love to go in and promote Individual Savings Accounts as opposed to unemployment, not to mention welfare, disability, workman's comp, and every other state run insurance monopoly they force us to pay for.
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Keyser Soce

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Re: "paying own way"?
« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2008, 04:06:13 am »

Im new here but wanted to throw in a couple pennies worth on an old subject. In my view everyone can get off of these federal programs a lot faster when they stop stealing our money from us on a regular basis. I know I could do a lot more with the 18k a year they steal in taxes than they do with it. With that extra money every year I would never need a helping hand from Uncle sam. The way I see it now is they take all of my extra money and leave me with little to invest. I would much prefer to fund my own retirement and live my life free than rely on them to have some program in place if I ever needed it.

You are dead on there. I have a friend who just filled out a check to the feds for $28 grand. Meanwhile, he has a brother and a mother collecting welfare. I say, give him back his money and kick them off the rolls.
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