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Author Topic: "paying own way"?  (Read 20288 times)

kevinak

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"paying own way"?
« on: April 14, 2007, 12:43:31 am »

I've seen views from a member of the Freestate Project that everyone has to pay their own way. I was wondering if everyone feels this same way? To elaborate, let's say I join the Freestate Project, and through no fault of my  own, I lose my job. Maybe, cut backs by my employer through layoffs, or my employer goes out of business, or my employer ups and moves its business else where. All of which have happened to me at one time or another. :'(

My question is, what is the Project's stance on unemployment insurance payments, foodstamps, medicaide, things like that? Things the Government has set up to assist people in those kinds of situations. :)

I won't say where I read the "views" >:D, but I will say the iindividualmade it sound like the Project is completely against these services.  >:(

If these "views" are held across the Project, what does the Project do to assist these individuals and their families during these times? Or are they "removed" or "forced" from the Project. ???
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Ward Griffiths

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Re: "paying own way"?
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2007, 02:15:20 am »

The "Project" is neither for nor against any of these things.  The FSP has as its only goal to get freedom-minded individuals move to New Hampshire.

Members of the FSP hold opinions all over the board, but most are (at best) lukewarm on government aid.

New Hampshire was the last state where food assistance was "in kind" rather than food stamps.  My mother collected, I ate a good bit of government cheese (yes, the real thing) and potted meat that was nowhere near the quality of Spam.  I have in the past (at spousal insistence) taken unemployment checks.  And once when I was really hungry, I leased my body to the Federal government for four years.  (The USAF fed me, stuff a lot better than USDA surplus, the rest of their promises were too vague to prosecute for breach of contract).

All of the assistance programs that governments set up are paid with funds robbed at gunpoint (not always literally -- I'm a wimp so I send my check to the IRS before they send the goons).  All the same with federal, state and municipal programs.  I will voluntarily starve before I eat government cheese again.
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Ward Griffiths    wdg3rd@comcast.net

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kevinak

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Re: "paying own way"?
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2007, 03:10:42 am »

 I will voluntarily starve before I eat government cheese again.

Yuck. Been there to. Just asking, because I have four daughters to think of. Actually, while posting this I'm holding my youngest, seven and a half months old, who is eating a bottle, the formula paid for by WIC.

But, you must know that the Government doesn't hand out food like that anymore. You have a card issued to you that you use to buy food, almost like an ATM card issued by your bank. They set the amount by your income, number of indiviuals in the family, so forth. Nobody even knows that your are using foodstamps at the grociery store anymore.
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greap

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Re: "paying own way"?
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2007, 03:58:57 am »

unemployment insurance payments

I don't think anyone would have a problem with that one. That is just smart if you don't have large sums kicking about a bank account.

As for the rest while we are working to eliminate them the real challenge is the people on welfare for life. I am sure you will run in to a number of members who do claim some form of government assistance already, either on the basis that they have to or that they are applying the "I pay for it so might as well use it" idea. A liberty minded individual who claims to stop his family starving while he continues to look for a new job is a great deal better then someone on welfare for life or someone who actively seeks out entitlement programs of any kind, I really don't think you will run in to many people at all who will consider you the fetid juices of Satan for that.
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lloydbob1

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Re: "paying own way"?
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2007, 06:44:17 am »

I don't know understand what is being said here.  We are certainly not interested in attracting 'anyone' to New Hampshire that is considering accepting/demanding government programs such as WIC.
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kevinak

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Re: "paying own way"?
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2007, 08:01:17 am »

I don't know understand what is being said here.  We are certainly not interested in attracting 'anyone' to New Hampshire that is considering accepting/demanding government programs such as WIC.

So you admit that if someone falls on hard times as I stated in my original post, the Project has a problem with someone trying to support their family for a short while with Govt aide? ???
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RichW

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Re: "paying own way"?
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2007, 09:01:23 am »

Once again, kevinak, "the project" takes no political stances whatsoever.  Its sole purpose is to attract 20,000+ freedom activists to New Hampshire.  Each FSP member has their own individual views on government welfare programs because each is, well, an individual.  Most freedom advocates, however, are against government welfare because of the force required to fund such programs.  Charitable solutions are preferable.  In my town, for example, the local rescue mission provides a bed, food, and a place to wash up for those in need.  IMHO stealing from another is wrong no matter how hungry you and your children may be.  Ask for assistance, don't steal it.
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"... it does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds...."  ~  Samuel Adams

FreeBoB

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Re: "paying own way"?
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2007, 09:05:50 am »

I don't know understand what is being said here.  We are certainly not interested in attracting 'anyone' to New Hampshire that is considering accepting/demanding government programs such as WIC.

So you admit that if someone falls on hard times as I stated in my original post, the Project has a problem with someone trying to support their family for a short while with Govt aide? ???

"...the Project has a problem with..."  The FSP does not take these kinds of positions. For the "positions" of the FSP, please read the Statement of Intent and the FAQs here: https://secure.freestateproject.org/join.jsp

Individuals take positions and have opinions on just about everything, of course, as evidenced here in this thread.  I would like to create an economy and a society where we have community and private forms of assistance for those who fall on hard times. That would allow us to phase out tax supported/government programs.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2007, 09:07:26 am by Brian Sullivan »
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lloydbob1

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Re: "paying own way"?
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2007, 09:14:50 am »

As stated above, the 'Project' doesn't have an opinion on anything.  Most of the members that I know want to put an end to the government social services that steal from productive people and then use the funds to create a dependency class.  They understand that when you subsidize something, you get more of it, especially when career bureaucrats are involved.  As the unemployment Insurance payments are taken against their will,  some don't have any problem with collecting it.
Most of us believe that charity should be on a volunteer basis.
I notice you have not inquired about employment and rents in NH, just what many of us would call the 'freeloader' stuff.
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kevinak

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Re: "paying own way"?
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2007, 09:20:12 am »


Individuals take positions and have opinions on just about everything, of course, as evidenced here in this thread.  I would like to create an economy and a society where we have community and private forms of assistance for those who fall on hard times. That would allow us to phase out tax supported/government programs.

Thank you, this is what I was asking. As everybody knows there are people with a wide array of ideas and beliefs. I was just trying to get an idea of how most people in the Project felt on this subject. There are right wingers and left wingers in every "situation" I just wanted to get an idea of the overall consensus in the Project.
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kevinak

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Re: "paying own way"?
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2007, 09:23:37 am »


I notice you have not inquired about employment and rents in NH, just what many of us would call the 'freeloader' stuff.


My employer has a plant in New Hampshire, all I would have to do is transfer there and they would move me and and find me an affordable place to live. I was just asking a question. Are you implying something?
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margomaps

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Re: "paying own way"?
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2007, 09:52:32 am »


I notice you have not inquired about employment and rents in NH, just what many of us would call the 'freeloader' stuff.


My employer has a plant in New Hampshire, all I would have to do is transfer there and they would move me and and find me an affordable place to live. I was just asking a question. Are you implying something?

Look, most of us in the FSP are libertarian or libertariain-leaning.  Usually libertarians are in favor of reducing or eliminating government welfare programs and replacing them with private charities.  Since your only concern so far seems to be finding out whether "the Project supports" the use of such government programs, you shouldn't be surprised to come across people who are uneasy about your motives.

Simple equation: on one side, most of us want a lot less government involvement; on the other side you seem to be fishing for support of government involvement in a particular area.  It is not hard to see tension between the two sides of this equation.
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lloydbob1

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Re: "paying own way"?
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2007, 09:56:47 am »


I notice you have not inquired about employment and rents in NH, just what many of us would call the 'freeloader' stuff.


My employer has a plant in New Hampshire, all I would have to do is transfer there and they would move me and and find me an affordable place to live. I was just asking a question. Are you implying something?

Then you have an opportunity to move to NH that most don't have. 
I was making an observation.
 We don't try to discourage people from joining, but, if your mission in life is making sure that government programs that you describe continue, you will be lonely in NH.

Many of the folks in NH are volunteering  to help others.  I heard where some Porcs are trying to help a widow recently left with 9 children with some transportation and house improvements.  Almost before the Freestaters landed on the ground in NH the Liberty Scholarship Fund was started and giving out scholarships.  We're trying to hook up with handicap agencies to build wheelchair ramps with donated materials with us supplying the labor.  I would love to see hundreds of us show up for Blood Drives wearing our FSP T shirts!  I think something was mentioned about giving blood at Porcfest, but, I don't know what has been arranged.
I am reminded by what I have said here I need to make a couple of emails!
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kevinak

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Re: "paying own way"?
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2007, 10:53:05 am »


Simple equation: on one side, most of us want a lot less government involvement; on the other side you seem to be fishing for support of government involvement in a particular area.  It is not hard to see tension between the two sides of this equation.

Do I believe we need a lot less Govt? Yes. Do I believe that the Govt sticks its "nose" into citizens business? Yes. Do I believe that we need to be less dependent on some Govt agencies? Yes. I was simply asking a question based on what I've read on another website, to see if everybody was as radical as this member seems to be. Do I support the Mission of the Free State Project? YES. I truly believe that we as Americans need to stand up for our freedoms and liberties.

But, we also need to pay taxes to defend this Nation from others. We need to pay the soldiers that are defending this country here and abroad every day. And buy the things that they need to do their jobs. This member is totally against taxes and other things that I see as a necessity to maintain this country as a peaceful place to live.

I am sorry if I offended anyone with my question, it was just wondering about the stance of the members as a whole.
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kevinak

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Re: "paying own way"?
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2007, 11:02:42 am »



Many of the folks in NH are volunteering  to help others.  I heard where some Porcs are trying to help a widow recently left with 9 children with some transportation and house improvements.  Almost before the Freestaters landed on the ground in NH the Liberty Scholarship Fund was started and giving out scholarships.  We're trying to hook up with handicap agencies to build wheelchair ramps with donated materials with us supplying the labor.  I would love to see hundreds of us show up for Blood Drives wearing our FSP T shirts!  I think something was mentioned about giving blood at Porcfest, but, I don't know what has been arranged.
I am reminded by what I have said here I need to make a couple of emails!


That is something worth while and proactive. I truly believe that if more people did things like this then we could do away with a lot of Govt subsidies that around today.

We don't try to discourage people from joining, but, if your mission in life is making sure that government programs that you describe continue, you will be lonely in NH.


No that is not my mission in life. I believe that these Govt programs are deeply infested with fraud and mismanagement just like most of the Govt. If an organization can come up with a way to help people that have fallen on hard times, to assist in an emergency situation, that would be more beneficial and productive.
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