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Author Topic: computer calling?  (Read 56794 times)

lloydbob1

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Re: computer calling?
« Reply #120 on: December 31, 2006, 01:31:05 am »

The computer calling is working. Not that everyone here seems to care if First 1000 works or not. I'm glad Mark took the intiative and I'd say that if F1K makes it, we'll have him to thank. If you give your phone number to the FSP, and expect that they'll never call you, then you're an idiot. Giving a phone number to an organization is tantamount to giving that organization permission to call you.

Calling would have been fine.  Repeated robotcalls are not.

I give out my number to my bank, but if they started repeatedly robot calling me every other day to sell me another service, I'd quickly find a different bank.

Kudos  to all you guys and gals doing something to advance the FSP.  And for your exuberance
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nobanana

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Re: computer calling?
« Reply #121 on: December 31, 2006, 01:39:24 am »

Rich says in this thread his group could have made more human calls - why sell my number to a spammer?

Elizabeth, you misuderstood my post.  I am not a "group"...just another FSP participant.  Read my post again and Friday's response.  That should clear things up.

I understand why you are upset.  I get emotional about freedom and privacy issues too.  Come to think of it, that is why I am a participant in the FSP.  Don't forget though, that we are all just volunteers, and human.  We do the best we can but make mistakes.  Your time as Vice President probably taught you that there is often far more work than there are volunteers to do it.  That leads to communcation breakdowns and sub-optimal decision-making.

As far as I can tell, a computer snafu resulted in 4 robo-calls to your phone numbers.  The person that goofed apologized.  Please accept that apology.

In order to succeed as an organization, however, we must contact our members from time to time.  I suspect the new year will bring an opt-out decision for you and others that no longer want to be a part of the FSP.  Avail yourself of that option.  But, please stop berating us for being human.  Thank you!



I think what mostly upset Elizabeth is more that she was immediately attacked when she complained about the robot calls.

Making a mistake is fine, but when she and I tried to talk about it here, we were both attacked on it.  No one said "gee, it might have been a mistake to do this", instead it came across as "what? We have every right to bug the crap out of you since you gave us your number!  Get forked if you don't like it."

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nobanana

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Re: computer calling?
« Reply #122 on: December 31, 2006, 01:40:49 am »

Lloyd rocks.   ;D

Are you sure?  He seems more retarded than rocking to me, but then my only experience with him is those repeated posts of his.
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citizen_142002

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Re: computer calling?
« Reply #123 on: December 31, 2006, 01:51:53 am »

Yeah seriously, heaven forbid a project actually work. Oh wait already happend. Thank God.

I suppose you don't like the idea of contracting either, Elizabeth. Perhaps you would have spent the money on a massive mailing that would have bagged 10 or 20 new signers for the FSP. Sorry, but this was a wiser investment.

Does it really matter if a person calls or an automated message? I mean, Mark gave his number. If you want a real person just dial the number he gave. I can't see a libertarian case against so called spam. You give an organization you're phone number to an organization and they call you in regards to a new aspect of the program. It doesn't even seem improper, let alone a violation of the ZAP.

If you don't like it, too bad. It's done, and it got real results.

Oh no, we must never call FSP members or send them a message. That might actually work.

Can anyone explain to me how a voice message is different from a regular mailing> No you can't cause there isn't a fundemental difference. If you get a letter you toss it if you don't want it, and with a voice message you just delete it if you don't want to listen.

Maybe some folks here think we should be jackasses and never contact any FSP signers in anyway. If a mailing is OK, then voice mailing is OK. It's the same damn thing, just a different media. If this was SPAM, then the unsolicited mailing that came to my house was SPAM. You don't hear me complaining do you? I'm not even an FSP member, but when I gave the FSP my contact info, it did dawn on me that they might use that info to contact me. Who would have thunk it?

Asfor you Elizabeth, I think you're pissed that the project didn't take off like you wanted. Well, no kidding. I'm sorry that didn't happen too. We've suceeded in a new approach. I am sorry that you don't want to be a part of it.

No true liberty loving porc ought to be offended when the FSP contacts him, whether it is a mailing, an e-mail, a personal phone call, or an automated one.

The FSP is staffed by volunteers, did you really think that the info you disclosed would be secure? Even if the number of people who see your phone number was smaller, it still wouldn't stop them from revealing it to whomever they wished, now would it.

I'm happy, and I'm celebrating.
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Soundwave

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Re: computer calling?
« Reply #124 on: December 31, 2006, 02:05:05 am »

It's not like the phone calls are made on a regular basis; this was a final push for the F1k. I'm glad Mark was successful. 
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nobanana

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Re: computer calling?
« Reply #125 on: December 31, 2006, 02:31:28 am »

Yeah seriously, heaven forbid a project actually work. Oh wait already happend. Thank God.

I suppose you don't like the idea of contracting either, Elizabeth. Perhaps you would have spent the money on a massive mailing that would have bagged 10 or 20 new signers for the FSP. Sorry, but this was a wiser investment.


I think she made it clear that she doesn't like the idea that her private number might be given to any non-fsp group.

I guess you're ok with the habits of certain companies that use prisoners to make telemarketing calls too.  After all, it's only contracting.


Does it really matter if a person calls or an automated message? I mean, Mark gave his number. If you want a real person just dial the number he gave. I can't see a libertarian case against so called spam. You give an organization you're phone number to an organization and they call you in regards to a new aspect of the program. It doesn't even seem improper, let alone a violation of the ZAP.


Regardless of whether it's a violation of some law doesn't make it acceptable to people.  A live person calling me is far less objectionable than a robot caller for at least the minimal issue of not being able to hang up on a robot caller.  Pick up the phone and it's STILL TALKING.

I highly object to people putting junk mail on my car as well.  There might not be a law against it but I still find it disgusting.

Why is it objectionable over a live person that calls or over snail mail or email?  Because it's designed to be INTRUSIVE.

Hey, wake up.  You're gonna hear my message on your phone whether you want to or not. It's gonna take 30 seconds of your time but you have to hear it whether you want to or not.

Junk mail I don't need to read. I can just pitch it.  Junk email I can discard without opening.  Email from a group I have interest in can be discarded or scanned through as I wish.

Having a live person call me directly shows a minimal amount of respect for my time.  My time is at least as valuable as his.  Having a robot call me shows that my time isn't considered worth even that much, and who cares if the robot calls repeatedly or screws up the message, because MY time isn't worth crap!


If you don't like it, too bad. It's done, and it got real results.


Nice attitude.  Basically screw you because we got what we wanted, regardless of the means.  Any means necessary after all.


Oh no, we must never call FSP members or send them a message. That might actually work.


A live person call, an email message, or even snail mail is far different than robot calls, especially repeated b0rked robot calls.


Can anyone explain to me how a voice message is different from a regular mailing> No you can't cause there isn't a fundemental difference. If you get a letter you toss it if you don't want it, and with a voice message you just delete it if you don't want to listen.


I just did above.    There's a huge difference.  Sending me 3 duplicate junk mails is something to laugh about.  Sending me 3 duplicate voice mails is highly annoying.  I suggest you try working in an office where a colleague repeatedly sends you duplicate voice mails and you might understand.   Basically one has to sit there listening to the message over an over.


Maybe some folks here think we should be jackasses and never contact any FSP signers in anyway. If a mailing is OK, then voice mailing is OK. It's the same damn thing, just a different media. If this was SPAM, then the unsolicited mailing that came to my house was SPAM. You don't hear me complaining do you? I'm not even an FSP member, but when I gave the FSP my contact info, it did dawn on me that they might use that info to contact me. Who would have thunk it?

Contact?  Contacts are fine.  Robot calls are annoying.  A mailing, again, is far different than a voice mailing.

I'm starting to think you are deliberately choosing to ignore the difference.  By any chance, do you work professionally in a field that sends out mass voice mails?


Asfor you Elizabeth, I think you're pissed that the project didn't take off like you wanted. Well, no kidding. I'm sorry that didn't happen too. We've suceeded in a new approach. I am sorry that you don't want to be a part of it.

No true liberty loving porc ought to be offended when the FSP contacts him, whether it is a mailing, an e-mail, a personal phone call, or an automated one.

Uh, if a true libertarian smacked you in the head with a shovel, he shouldn't be offended either I guess?  (an extreme example maybe, but made to show the ridiculousness of your statement.)

Elizabeth stressed repeatedly why she was pissed.  It was about the robot calls.    Did you not read her posts?


The FSP is staffed by volunteers, did you really think that the info you disclosed would be secure? Even if the number of people who see your phone number was smaller, it still wouldn't stop them from revealing it to whomever they wished, now would it.

I'm happy, and I'm celebrating.


It's far more of a stretch to imagine a group of fsp volunteers selling lists of fsp member phone numbers than a telemarketing company doing so.  I could be wrong.  Do you find that fsp volunteers generally sell phone lists to third party companies?

It's one thing to trust your number to a small group of supposedly trustworthy volunteers than to trust your number to a third party telemarketing company.  I would consider telemarketing companies, and robot calling companies specifically, among the dregs of industry.  What other industry makes their money based on how intrusive they can be to people at home?

Not a LOT of other industries take money from customers expressly to contact people at home, while they are eating dinner or relaxing, simply because that's the best time to reach them.

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nobanana

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Re: computer calling?
« Reply #126 on: December 31, 2006, 02:34:38 am »

It's not like the phone calls are made on a regular basis; this was a final push for the F1k. I'm glad Mark was successful. 

We only shot the victim once.  What's he complaining about?
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RichW

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Re: computer calling?
« Reply #127 on: December 31, 2006, 03:26:49 am »

It's harder to address real questions and issues about...people paid to get signups...

You have to be kidding.  You have a problem with the FSP doing marketing?????????  Um, marketing…to its OWN members.  Wow.

Hey, wake up.  You're gonna hear my message on your phone whether you want to or not. It's gonna take 30 seconds of your time but you have to hear it whether you want to or not.

Let me get this strait…you find it offensive that the FSP, a movement that you joined and supposedly support, took 30 seconds of your time????????   30 seconds.  You also must be kidding.  What do you think we are doing, selling cutlery?  This is not cold-calling we are talking about….but calls TO OUR OWN MEMBERS…people that support our cause.

If either of you expects the FSP to refrain from contacting its own members, then you either have a very large bug up your ass that needs surgical intervention, or you are two oars short of a row boat.
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"Hagrid"

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Re: computer calling?
« Reply #128 on: December 31, 2006, 04:02:20 am »

I suppose you don't like the idea of contracting either, Elizabeth. Perhaps you would have spent the money on a massive mailing that would have bagged 10 or 20 new signers for the FSP. Sorry, but this was a wiser investment.

Actually, that was done as well, so was external emails (to targeted libertarians, many of whom are NOT in the FSP database)
If fact, if you compare funds spent, I'll wager that the email and snail mail campaigns paid far more per signup.

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Oh no, we must never call FSP members or send them a message. That might actually work.

Indeed, the gulching mentality (aka overly privacy concerned) to the point of absurdity has slowed the FSP down over the last 5 years.
Elizabeth is one in a long line of (past leadership) folks who have done more to stop potential progress (by naysaying at times).


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The FSP is staffed by volunteers, did you really think that the info you disclosed would be secure? Even if the number of people who see your phone number was smaller, it still wouldn't stop them from revealing it to whomever they wished, now would it.

Officially, the privacy policy covers anyone who has access to the data, but NDA forms are still a 'todo' item.  I respect the FSP info (having access to large chunks of it), and misusing it would be unethical.  Who has the keys is ALWAYS a consideration leadership has made.

Steve

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Re: computer calling?
« Reply #129 on: December 31, 2006, 04:49:07 am »

Elizabeth is one in a long line of (past leadership) folks who have done more to stop potential progress (by naysaying at times).
Not true. Elizabeth is one of the best leaders the FSP ever had, and one of her best traits was a true project manager's focus on results. She was also intelligent, and possessed good judgment and perspective. The gebbeth posting here under Elizabeth's name is the victim of extreme volunteer burnout, what happens when one invests excessive effort into a cause, to the point of obsession. She is not the FSP's only case. She has been further eaten up inside by an internal conflict: feeling bound to honor her commitment to move with the FSP, while being constrained by personal circumstances.

There are people posting in this very thread who have come close to burnout and losing their marbles; I've come close enough myself. Let's try to keep the FSP in perspective. If you're an atheist like me, you know that you're just a pretentious ape, and soon you'll be dead and forgotten. If you're religious, then you can look forward to an afterlife with divine reward and punishment. How important is "Liberty in our lifetime" anyway?
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Steve

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Re: computer calling?
« Reply #130 on: December 31, 2006, 06:28:42 am »

It's not like the phone calls are made on a regular basis; this was a final push for the F1k. I'm glad Mark was successful. 

We only shot the victim once.  What's he complaining about?
Libertarians are usually better at distinguishing between that which does and does not violate the ZAP/NAP, since our philosophy hinges on it. In the given case, 1-4 robocalls might be bad taste or even annoying, but nothing more.

I understand that you are looking for an acknowledgment, for someone to say, "Yes, I feel your pain, the robocalls were a horrible mistake and they will never happen again." But anecdotal evidence suggests that most of our call recipients (ostensibly libertarian activists) were pleased (pleased to see libertarian activists doing something), and very few were annoyed. This is not surprising: people do not hate robocalls per se, but robocalls combined with the purpose behind them.

The effort succeeded. Libertarians everywhere should be rejoicing. If someone is not rejoicing, I have to question his politics or his sanity. Let's get some perspective: we are in a historic struggle for *justice*, to address gross violations of human rights, and we have 9 flipping pages here of posts about a one-off spate of robocalls?
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Adk Rebel

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Re: computer calling?
« Reply #131 on: December 31, 2006, 07:29:05 am »

Being a recipient of two of the robocalls, I would have preferred if it were a live person, but with the numbers involved and the time constraints, I can fully understand why this was done.  I'm just glad that it was successful and I aplaud those of you who have made the time and effort to make it successful. 

I don't post here much as I'm too busy right now burning the proverbial candle at both ends.  And unfortunately I'm not in a position where I can commit to leaving this God forsaken New Socialist Republic of New York for New Hampshire right now or I would have signed up, but hopefully that will change in the near future.

I can understand Elizabeth being upset and whoever stated that it was most likely volunteer burnout, I think they hit the nail on the head.  I can distinctly remember Elizabeth putting in a superhuman amount of time and effort into the Free State Project in the earlier stages and I still applaud her for her efforts.  I think she just butted a few too many heads along the way and it gets tiring after a while.  I know as it's happened to me, just not here.

Anyway, just wanted to throw in my two cents worth.

Rich
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varrin

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Re: computer calling?
« Reply #132 on: December 31, 2006, 08:35:56 am »

Officially, the privacy policy covers anyone who has access to the data, but NDA forms are still a 'todo' item. 

*Collecting* them is still a todo item, but we do at least have one developed now.  We are collecting them from new volunteers but haven't collected them from all the existing volunteers yet.  Heck, I haven't even signed it yet...  Yes, that's on the to-do list...

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"Hagrid"

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Re: computer calling?
« Reply #133 on: December 31, 2006, 09:17:28 am »

Elizabeth is one in a long line of (past leadership) folks who have done more to stop potential progress (by naysaying at times).
Not true. Elizabeth is one of the best leaders the FSP ever had, and one of her best traits was a true project manager's focus on results. She was also intelligent, and possessed good judgment and perspective. The gebbeth posting here under Elizabeth's name is the victim of extreme volunteer burnout, what happens when one invests excessive effort into a cause, to the point of obsession. She is not the FSP's only case. She has been further eaten up inside by an internal conflict: feeling bound to honor her commitment to move with the FSP, while being constrained by personal circumstances.

Since I wasn't involved with the FSP during Elizabeth's term, I'll bow to your opinion of her past.  My comment about the long line of folks stands true, it's only her membership in that line in question.

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There are people posting in this very thread who have come close to burnout and losing their marbles;

Indeed.  *Raising hand*  Many say I did burnout and I have lost my marbles, and I concur with that opinion sometimes.
But I got better.

Quote
I've come close enough myself. Let's try to keep the FSP in perspective. If you're an atheist like me, you know that you're just a pretentious ape, and soon you'll be dead and forgotten. If you're religious, then you can look forward to an afterlife with divine reward and punishment. How important is "Liberty in our lifetime" anyway?

Heretic!  Burn him!  There is only one true Free State Project and Jason is its founder! 20K 1000 186 *and growing* moved for the sins of the world to Mecca The Shire so that Liberty may reign!
« Last Edit: December 31, 2006, 09:46:42 am by Steve »
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lloydbob1

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Re: computer calling?
« Reply #134 on: December 31, 2006, 09:32:28 am »

Lloyd rocks.   ;D

Are you sure?  He seems more retarded than rocking to me, but then my only experience with him is those repeated posts of his.

Drool......slurppp!
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