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Author Topic: TAXES!!!  (Read 20668 times)

JasonPSorens

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Re: TAXES!!!
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2006, 10:08:13 am »

I still don't see how neighborhood roads could be privatized in the traditional sense. Bryan Caplan's idea of customer ownership of these "natural monopolies" is intriguing, however.
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

JonM

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Re: TAXES!!!
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2006, 10:46:55 am »

Electronic enforcement would mean someone would know where you are driving . . . and when.  Nah, no possible negative repercussions from that.

If you built sensors to detect the amount of traffic into the roads, private road owners could be compensated out of a pool of funds (gas tax, road tax, some other fee structure) without violating privacy.  But then, a system that can be gamed, will be gamed.
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greap

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Re: TAXES!!!
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2006, 11:39:19 am »

Electronic enforcement would mean someone would know where you are driving . . . and when.  Nah, no possible negative repercussions from that.

That assumes that when consumers are aware of privacy issues organizations won't use them as selling points. I have been working on an AI system to track and predict a users online behavior (IE they visit here so will like this, but somewhat more advanced then current systems like Amazon etc) and the privacy issues has been one of the prime considerations during development so far. A closed "black box" system (IE you can only use it for its intended purpose, not data mining) is certainly achievable (no IT system can ever be 100% secure but if you can get it to the stage where it would take decades to decode data for a single journey then there would be no benefit in doing so) it is simply not done yet because privacy is not a primary consideration among most people (and even with those it is only a tiny fraction really understand the difference between a secure and insecure system) and the cost outlay is significant enough that businesses mostly ignore it.

If you built sensors to detect the amount of traffic into the roads, private road owners could be compensated out of a pool of funds (gas tax, road tax, some other fee structure) without violating privacy.  But then, a system that can be gamed, will be gamed.

That is still collectivizing the system and putting it under the purview of the government, very little different from how it is now. Until the word Tax exists nowhere in law (except to explicitly forbid it) we still have work to do to archive the perfect government.

On a last point there are lots of small privately held roads in this area of the world and they seem to operate perfectly fine with residents paying for access if they want to use a car.
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SeanSchade

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Re: TAXES!!!
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2006, 03:58:27 pm »


"Plain silly" is arguing without stating your reasons. Please provide the supporting logic behind your arguments.

Kevin

OK, how much different is it to pay a private corporation a toll than it is to pay the government a tax or toll? You still pay to use the resource.

I think the argument is "silly" because not all roads would be leased and managed, and to say "Well those roads will just cease to exist" isn't an answer. Our network of roads is one of the things that has made this country as successful as it is. The ability for any of us to freely travel on those roads, or have roads that service our domiciles and work places is invaluable.

To do something just to eliminate the government without thought to the consequences is both short-sighted and selfish.  ::)

Anarchy only works in small groups. History has proven this. So what makes any of you anarchists on here think it will work on a scale as large as a city, county, state, or country?

It's "We the people" not "Me, Myself, and I"  ::)
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greap

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Re: TAXES!!!
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2006, 06:25:49 pm »


"Plain silly" is arguing without stating your reasons. Please provide the supporting logic behind your arguments.

Kevin

OK, how much different is it to pay a private corporation a toll than it is to pay the government a tax or toll? You still pay to use the resource.

A great deal different. Firstly the government enjoy wasting vast amounts of money and the ROI is significantly lower then in the private sector. Secondly, in most areas, the government is not bound by market forces. They will build a road that serves no purpose and will not result in a tangible benefit on the say so of a committee rather then if it will be used (and thus generate a return). Thirdly (and most importantly) it is not a valid function of government to maintain the roads. A government exists solely to protect your life, liberty and persuit of happiness. Driving is not a right, it is a choice and a benefit and as such it would be improper for government to have any involvement. As soon as you say roads are OK then people are bound to ask why not sewage? Why not water and power? There is no middleground, we either have correct government or we don't.

I think the argument is "silly" because not all roads would be leased and managed, and to say "Well those roads will just cease to exist" isn't an answer. Our network of roads is one of the things that has made this country as successful as it is. The ability for any of us to freely travel on those roads, or have roads that service our domiciles and work places is invaluable.

Why wouldn't the roads continue to provide growth? Roads that are used will continue to exists, roads that are not use will not. It is also worth noting that the reason you need the roads to reach your house is due, in large part, to huge post WW2 government subsidies in to housing which created suburbia and necessitated the building of a vast amount of today's highway system.

To do something just to eliminate the government without thought to the consequences is both short-sighted and selfish.  ::)

Some of us take selfish as a compliment so thank you :) As for short sighted it has nothing at all to do with that. The idea of everyone being healthy and living long lives is wonderful and fantastic but that doesn't mean I support universal healthcare. The ends never justify the means and if you have to deprive the right of one man in order to serve another (so in this case taxation to maintain the network of roads) then you are talking about slavery and robbery not rights enforcement. It doesn't matter what you like, it matters what is ethical and not. As soon as you start involving emotions in that process and without remaining objective things go horribly wrong very quickly.

Anarchy only works in small groups. History has proven this. So what makes any of you anarchists on here think it will work on a scale as large as a city, county, state, or country?

Might want to check your terms there sir. Not everyone (most of us IIRC) here is an anarchist and many of us who are not have very strong ethical objections to it. Just because someone supports small government does not mean they are an anarchist. In answer to your question though why shouldn't we think it will work? Do people really need to be all treated like children living in a catholic boarding school who should have the cain taken to them whenever they do something to offend the expected morality? Do business really need to be told what to do and not to do when the market and the threat of litigation face them? Is it really OK for the government to enslave people and steal via taxes while claiming it serves some greater good? All these controls and mechanisms do is prevent us from achieving and accomplishing what we really can as human beings and to keep us thinking that we don't know whats good for us, only an over baring government can.

It's "We the people" not "Me, Myself, and I"  ::)

Unification has nothing to do with being an individualist. have a look through NHFree and you will see how readily people band together to help each other out in a crunch. We don't necessarily all want to live in silos, we just want to be given the choice instead of having it forced on us.
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RalphBorsodi

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Re: TAXES!!!
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2006, 07:31:21 pm »

Quote
huge post WW2 government subsidies in to housing which created suburbia and necessitated the building of a vast amount of today's highway system.

I think you actually have it backwards.

large landowners lobby for roads and then reap huge windfalls as land values ballooned...

Eisenhower's interstate had a military justification.
Many mass transit systems were purcahsed by the car companies and dismantled.
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DrStrangelove

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Re: TAXES!!!
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2007, 01:47:54 pm »

Privatizing public transportation should be a good thing, because there can be competition between bus, metro, etc ; and of course the individual's own cars, bikes, etc, so the market logic would apply to the bus/metro and it would have to offer competitive prices and performance, which would be a Good Thing.

However, private owned business is here to maximize revenues, so when it gets hold of a monopoly, all hell breaks loose. Remember how much the old (state-sponsored) telephone monopolies charged ?

So, if you privatize roads you have to be very careful about preserving competition which is the driving force behind the efficiency of private business, and which was the point of privatizing to begin with !

But the notion of competition with something like roads isn't easy to define... if all the roads in an area are owned by the same entity, then they can charge whatever they want, and you get back to square one with the state having to cap the prices, which is even worse.

Still, payment should be proportional to use, so I believe roads should be financed entirely by the existing tax on gasoline, and usefulness of spending should be open to public scrutiny...
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davek

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Re: TAXES!!!
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2007, 10:43:57 pm »

There is a great deal of good information regarding the nuts and bolts of road privitization at urbanfutures.org.   As to fears of monopolies, they are difficult to both achieve and maintain in the absence of government intervention.  The discipline of the market provides all the protection needed. 
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Gabriel

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Re: TAXES!!!
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2007, 01:09:43 pm »

Roads are one of the classic ‘test cases’ for a serious free-market theorist, since they’re one of the classic economics-class examples of a public good. The point that most libertarians fail to note is that roads are as important to defense, or more so, as they are to commerce.

In general, I’m skeptical of the public-goods argument against free markets; I think in most cases, so-called public goods could just as easily be funded by voluntary consortia of those who a) can benefit and b) can afford it. If a group of interested businessmen can’t find a way to increase their own profits by building a lighthouse, maybe the town doesn’t need one after all. And the so-called ‘free-rider problem’ is not a problem at all, but a benefit: If I can get a consortium together, build a lighthouse, and gain a net profit from the increased trade the town draws, then the fact that other people in the town who did not buy in are also benefiting is not a problem, it’s pure gravy.

Roads, however, are a special case. While commercial and private transportation need not necessarily have anything to do with the state, national defense IS a proper function of government if it has any proper function at all. And effective military action requires good roads, as armies since the days of the Romans have known. As I understand it, the idea for our current system of interstate highways was conceived as a direct result of the terrible time Eisenhower had moving war materiel from the East Coast to the West during the final months of World War II, and they were built for the primary purpose of facilitating troop movements and city evacuations in the event of an invasion. The attacker always has an advantage in that he can choose the time and place of his attack; the best way for the defenders to minimize that advantage is to make internal troop movements and redeployments as fast, efficient, and flexible as possible- and that means roads.

Once the roads are built, it would hardly make sense to forbid their use for civilian purposes. Yes, building roads ends up distorting the transportation market and disincenting use of more efficient alternatives, but the consequences of NOT building roads go beyond economic inefficiency and head straight for military conquest. Unless you’re prepared to argue for a free-market civil defense, you must accept the construction of roads as a legitimate part of our government mandate, and the resulting market distortion as part of the price we pay for defense. And, even if you do go whole-hog anarcho-capitalist, it’s likely that any serious defense company would either insist on an adequate road system as a condition of employment, or raise their rates enough to build one themselves.
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RalphBorsodi

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Re: TAXES!!!
« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2007, 05:30:36 pm »

Quote
Once the roads are built, it would hardly make sense to forbid their use for civilian purposes.

roads present a particular vexing problem because they actually "contain" two different sets of rights/property...

so within a roadway lies an individual common right of way that is an equal right...one is free to use so long as you are not infringing upon the equal rights of any other individual to the same right of way (this is why protestors have to continually move on a sidewalk).

the actual roadway itself (physical) is collectively owned property.
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Russell Kanning

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Re: TAXES!!!
« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2007, 08:48:18 am »

You can't make roads privately owned. Everyone's answer to eliminating taxes is to make everything privately owned.  ::)

The government is responsible for providing and paying for "infrastructure" items. Items that are necessary, but are also not feasibly profitable for a private party to own. Roads are such an item.
Why not?
If there is no government most roads would be "owned" by someone.
I do not consider any government items necessary.
The government is not feasibly operating the roads right now.
I also live on a private road. With private snow removal.
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Russell Kanning

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Re: TAXES!!!
« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2007, 08:53:01 am »

I still don't see how neighborhood roads could be privatized in the traditional sense. Bryan Caplan's idea of customer ownership of these "natural monopolies" is intriguing, however.
I live in such a neighborhood.
The neighborhood of Valencia in CA was master planned and all the roads built by Newhall Land and Farming. I bet if they would have never given it over to the government (city of Santa Clarita) the whole area would be much better off.
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The NH Underground - "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -Mahatma Gandhi
New Hampshire Free Press - The Nonviolent Revolution Starts Here

"Resolve to serve no more, and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces." -- Etienne de La Boetie, The Politics of Obedience: The Discourse of Voluntary Servitude

error

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Re: TAXES!!!
« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2007, 05:18:18 am »

I'm in a town full of private roads, and there isn't a tollbooth every block. The "roads" issue is mostly a non-issue.
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JasonPSorens

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Re: TAXES!!!
« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2007, 08:51:30 am »

I'm in a town full of private roads, and there isn't a tollbooth every block. The "roads" issue is mostly a non-issue.

That's only possible in new developments, though, where a developer owns the roads. How do you privatize roads in a neighborhood that's already built & occupied?
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KBCraig

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Re: TAXES!!!
« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2007, 11:45:54 am »

I'm in a town full of private roads, and there isn't a tollbooth every block. The "roads" issue is mostly a non-issue.

That's only possible in new developments, though, where a developer owns the roads. How do you privatize roads in a neighborhood that's already built & occupied?

Form a neighborhood association and ask the town to cede to the roads to the group.

Towns cede roads and rights-of-way all the time because they're unused or under-used, and the town doesn't want to pay to maintain them.

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