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Author Topic: TAXES!!!  (Read 20673 times)

Uhuru

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TAXES!!!
« on: November 13, 2006, 11:08:19 am »

I was just pondering the Taxation dilemma in a Free State.  Here is what I figured...
It would be wrong to make people pay for what they don't use, but if someone does use something, them must pay, or it will deteriorate and no one will be able to use it.  Here is a possible solution to that dilemma...

First off...  There would be no taxes on Property, Income and Sales (with one novelty tax exception at bottom)

Roads:  paid for with a gasoline tax and a toll that charges by the # of axels
Sewage:  Waste bill charge for maintenance use, etc.
Water:  Water bill
Electric:  Electric bill
Garbage:  Garbage bill
etc. etc.
Environmental cleanup
Environmental damage assesment tax.  Before a corporation sets up, they have to pay the fees to clean up what they are about to destroy.
Legal system and State Government:  Paid for with fines to environmental polluters, fines to theft and corruption criminals, and through industries that are staffed by the violent offender inmates.  (license plate manufacturing, powering generators with stationary bike use, etc.)

Education:  Funded by taxes on Free State novelty industries like prostitution, gambling, porn and drug sales.

Environmental pollution would carry HEAVY Fines and costs, as would corporate theft and corruption.  This way billions could be made off of evil doers, while the rest of the people who compete fairly and productively will have no hastles.
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greap

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Re: TAXES!!!
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2006, 11:38:29 am »

Roads:  paid for with a gasoline tax and a toll that charges by the # of axels

Make them privately owned

Sewage:  Waste bill charge for maintenance use, etc.

Make them privately owned

Water:  Water bill
Electric:  Electric bill
Garbage:  Garbage bill

Environmental cleanup
Environmental damage assesment tax.  Before a corporation sets up, they have to pay the fees to clean up what they are about to destroy.

Or, perhaps, rely on the effect of the market and danger of litigation to prevent the damage.


Legal system and State Government:  Paid for with fines to environmental polluters, fines to theft and corruption criminals, and through industries that are staffed by the violent offender inmates.  (license plate manufacturing, powering generators with stationary bike use, etc.)

Legal system can be self-funding reasonably easily. If people outside prison have to work in order to survive so should those inside. Once you eliminate all non-crimes (drug use etc) the prison population would be down to a much more manageable level and those remaining should work. A source of cheap labor for the manufacturing industry perhaps. This would not only eliminate the tax burden but also provide offenders with marketable skills when they are released.

Education:  Funded by taxes on Free State novelty industries like prostitution, gambling, porn and drug sales.

Or how about stop the brainwashing of children and the production of sub-intelligent human beings and move it all in to the private sector or home schooling? Why should users of "novelty" items be penalized to educate (poorly at that) other peoples children? How is that not still stealing?

Environmental pollution would carry HEAVY Fines and costs, as would corporate theft and corruption.  This way billions could be made off of evil doers, while the rest of the people who compete fairly and productively will have no hastles.

Or not and we remove government from an area they have no business messing with. Unless a company starts harming PEOPLE the government has no justification for getting involved.
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SeanSchade

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Re: TAXES!!!
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2006, 12:23:09 pm »

You can't make roads privately owned. Everyone's answer to eliminating taxes is to make everything privately owned.  ::)

The government is responsible for providing and paying for "infrastructure" items. Items that are necessary, but are also not feasibly profitable for a private party to own. Roads are such an item.

How do you make money off owning certain sections of road? Can you put toll booths at every entry and exit to control traffic, and make sure that people pay? Yes, but can you do it and still earn a profit? NO!

What happens to sections of roads that nobody wants to buy? Who pays for upkeep of those roads? What if over 10 miles 10 different people own sections of the road?

It is plain silly for people to say that roads should be privately owned. It is also stupid to say that the military should be privately owned as well. Hezbolah is a privately owned military.  ::)
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greap

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Re: TAXES!!!
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2006, 12:36:01 pm »

You can't make roads privately owned. Everyone's answer to eliminating taxes is to make everything privately owned.  ::)

The government is responsible for providing and paying for "infrastructure" items. Items that are necessary, but are also not feasibly profitable for a private party to own. Roads are such an item.


Privately owned toll roads seem to do quite nicely.

How do you make money off owning certain sections of road? Can you put toll booths at every entry and exit to control traffic, and make sure that people pay? Yes, but can you do it and still earn a profit? NO!

Why do you need people there? Electronic enforcement would do perfectly well.

What happens to sections of roads that nobody wants to buy? Who pays for upkeep of those roads? What if over 10 miles 10 different people own sections of the road?

No one pays for their upkeep. If no one wants to buy them then it would be because no one wants to use them and as such they shouldn't be there in the first place. You might well end up in that kind of situation. In reality I would imagine that management companies would pay a fee to "rent" the sections of road as one and bill them together. Even if that didn't happen the roads should still not be owned by government for the simple fact taxes of any form are not a valid function of government.

It is plain silly for people to say that roads should be privately owned. It is also stupid to say that the military should be privately owned as well. Hezbolah is a privately owned military.  ::)

Military should be state owned (as should the police) but be defensive only (so much much smaller and not consist of an Army) and remove the market protectionism rules they use for bids at the moment.
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roland787

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Re: TAXES!!!
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2006, 07:55:39 pm »

Roads should be free and funded by the federal govt.  Like sumbody already said, sry i cant remember ur name, but it is the govts responsibility to fund for infrastructures that cant be done by private owners.  Plus who the hell wants to have to pay to use roads, its ridiculous and stands against everything we stand for. 

It would slow down transportation and traffic if u had to stop at sum booth to pay a toll just to keep driving.
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RalphBorsodi

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Re: TAXES!!!
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2006, 08:08:31 pm »

Roads should be free and funded by the federal govt.  Like sumbody already said, sry i cant remember ur name, but it is the govts responsibility to fund for infrastructures that cant be done by private owners.  Plus who the hell wants to have to pay to use roads, its ridiculous and stands against everything we stand for. 

It would slow down transportation and traffic if u had to stop at sum booth to pay a toll just to keep driving.

the problem we have with roads is that they CONTAIN a common right of way as an individual equal access right (so long as you don't infringe on any other individual's right) that enable freedom of movement.

but the actual road themselves are collectively owned.

if they were privately owned then what of the individual common right of way???
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Ward Griffiths

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Re: TAXES!!!
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2006, 12:33:05 am »

Roads should be free and funded by the federal govt.  Like sumbody already said, sry i cant remember ur name, but it is the govts responsibility to fund for infrastructures that cant be done by private owners.  Plus who the hell wants to have to pay to use roads, its ridiculous and stands against everything we stand for. 

It would slow down transportation and traffic if u had to stop at sum booth to pay a toll just to keep driving.
Roland, we pay for the roads either way.  With taxes, we pay for roads we don't use (plus a crapload of overhead, like state police/highway patrol).  With private ownership and tolls, we pay for the roads we want to.

I know you're young, but please grow out of the textspeak spelling.  The spell check button under the message form actually works on this forum.
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KBCraig

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Re: TAXES!!!
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2006, 02:14:27 am »

You can't make roads privately owned.

Why not?

Quote
The government is responsible for providing and paying for "infrastructure" items.

"Responsible for..."? Sez who?

Quote
Items that are necessary, but are also not feasibly profitable for a private party to own. Roads are such an item.

Throughout history, roads and critical points like bridges and ferries have been privately owned. Government involvement is a modern development.

Quote
How do you make money off owning certain sections of road?

The government seems to manage, somehow, when they install toll roads.

Quote
What happens to sections of roads that nobody wants to buy?

The same thing that happens to widgets that no one wants to buy: they cease to exist.

If the surrounding road owners are harmed by the loss of a connecting section of road, they will either make a bid for it, or suffer the loss.

Quote
It is plain silly for people to say that roads should be privately owned.

"Plain silly" is arguing without stating your reasons. Please provide the supporting logic behind your arguments.

Kevin
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roland787

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Re: TAXES!!!
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2006, 06:15:00 am »

I understand that we want the federal government out of our lives as much as possible but this is something that they must provided for us.   Theres a lot of roads out there and I doubt that every road will end up being bought. 

How much are we going to be having to spend everytime we leave our house just to use these roads?  How often or how far apart will these tolls be,  everytime we get to a road that a diff person owns or everytime we change roads? 

I'm not sure about anybody else, but I know that I'm not going to want to have to pay along the roads. You know how quickly that would get on my nerves and I'm sure many others will also find it very annoying.
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RalphBorsodi

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Re: TAXES!!!
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2006, 07:00:00 am »

I understand that we want the federal government out of our lives as much as possible but this is something that they must provided for us.   Theres a lot of roads out there and I doubt that every road will end up being bought. 

How much are we going to be having to spend everytime we leave our house just to use these roads?  How often or how far apart will these tolls be,  everytime we get to a road that a diff person owns or everytime we change roads? 

I'm not sure about anybody else, but I know that I'm not going to want to have to pay along the roads. You know how quickly that would get on my nerves and I'm sure many others will also find it very annoying.

what about the individual common right of ways contained within the roads themselves that are natural rights which governments are actually constituted to protect - are they to be "sold" too?
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roland787

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Re: TAXES!!!
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2006, 07:19:06 am »

I'd like to see the roads privately owned because the govt needs to focus on other things, but roads cost a lot of money to upkeep and are constantly in need of repairs.  What if the only people who use a specific road can not afford to buy it? or if they do, they cant afford the repairs and upkeep?  theres so many roads and highways i doubt that they will all end up getting bought by people.  plus theres no source of money comcoming from em and the whole toll idea just scares me and not to mention, it kinda pisses me off just thinking of having to pay a toll everytime i leave my house to go sumwhere.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2006, 07:21:07 am by roland787 »
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greap

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Re: TAXES!!!
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2006, 07:22:44 am »

I understand that we want the federal government out of our lives as much as possible but this is something that they must provided for us.   Theres a lot of roads out there and I doubt that every road will end up being bought. 

A profit motive is no the only reason they would be bought. I would be very surprised indeed if lots of the roads didn't end up getting bought out by the communities themselves. In addition if ownership was fractured along a stretch of road it seems perfectly obvious that the owners of each bit would enter in to agreement to give each other free access to their part of road in exchange for theirs.

How much are we going to be having to spend everytime we leave our house just to use these roads?  How often or how far apart will these tolls be,  everytime we get to a road that a diff person owns or everytime we change roads? 

That would be variable. Like I said the larger stretches of road might be owned by several people but as with similar industries (think rail network) a small number of companies would operate those on behalf of the owners. As for price on normal roads it would almost certainly work out cheaper then the current fuel tax does as there would be competition rather then a bureaucratic nonsense price. Highways would likely cost the same as toll roads in similar areas do now (IE not much at all).

Inner city would be stupidly expensive, of course. Several large cities already run toll zones (enforced electronically rather then having booths) which might serve as good comparisons for this (London is currently $15 for entire days access, would translate to about $5 over there given how most cost items translate).

I'm not sure about anybody else, but I know that I'm not going to want to have to pay along the roads. You know how quickly that would get on my nerves and I'm sure many others will also find it very annoying.

You already do. I am sure a system similar to EzPass (or even better the one they operate in Singapore that doesn't require speed reduction) would prevent convenience or congestion problems.

Might also point out that the fact it would be inconvenient is no reason to maintain the current system. Some would say it is convenient for the state to collect health insurance money and provide universal health care. The question we should ask ourselves when we think about if government should do something or not isn't if we want them to but if it is justified for them to do so and does it harm anyone to let them do so.
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RalphBorsodi

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Re: TAXES!!!
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2006, 07:29:00 am »

Quote
What if the only people who use a specific road can not afford to buy it?

then it should not have been built in the first place and the price you paid for the land under your home was inflated by the amount the access gives you.

all roads should be paid for by the increase to land values that the roads produce.

the maintenance of the roads should be leased out to private companies...the payment for which can be collected on strategicaly located electronic tolls.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2006, 07:30:46 am by RalphBorsodi »
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roland787

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Re: TAXES!!!
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2006, 08:20:27 am »

excellent points and thank you for helping me understand how this could possibly work.  it sounds like it just may.  I guess I'm still skeptical on the whole toll thing and having to stop or slow down in order to pay to be able to keep going. 

and may i ask how the one in singapore that does not require speed reduction works??
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The marvel of all history is the patience with which men and women submit to burdens unnecessarily laid upon them by their governments.

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lloydbob1

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Re: TAXES!!!
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2006, 08:33:42 am »

Fast
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