Free State Project Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Down

Author Topic: The Environment  (Read 8129 times)

MaineShark

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5044
Re: The Environment
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2013, 03:56:44 am »

Libertarians believe in having a police force? Right.

Nope.

So, the rest of your post is meaningless.
Logged
"An armed society is a polite society" - this does not mean that we are polite because we fear each other.

We are not civilized because we are armed; we are armed because we are civilized..

Eric Freerock

  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 104
  • Moving Summer 2013
Re: The Environment
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2013, 12:09:27 pm »

If it's paid for using stolen money then it's not a very good idea.  If it's a good idea then raising the money through voluntary means shouldn't be a problem.

greap

  • First 1000
  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1009
  • What we have here is a failure to communicate
Re: The Environment
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2013, 12:45:45 pm »

Libertarians believe in having a police force? Right.

Nope.

So, the rest of your post is meaningless.

Some do, I am one.

Libertarianism != Anarchism.

As for OP's post preemptive enforcement (which is what the EPA does) is ineffective and currently works to protect polluters. Eliminate limited liability and the problem goes away, if a company pollutes then its owners are held financially responsible in civil court by those who were damaged by their actions.

I may also be in support of pigovian taxes to deal with negative externalities which are long term emergent (such as carbon emissions) if the tax, and the spending it supports, were based on empiricism. One of the big fallacies of anarchists is that negative externalities either don't exist or don't matter, as long as commons exist (and they always will) we will always have negative externalities.
Logged
_____________________________________________________________

MaineShark

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5044
Re: The Environment
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2013, 01:35:43 pm »

Some do, I am one.

Libertarianism != Anarchism.

The NAP does not have exceptions, and a libertarian, by definition, adheres to the NAP.

Even if one presupposes a government, that does not automatically allow for police, who are nothing but agrgessive thugs.

I may also be in support of pigovian taxes to deal with negative externalities which are long term emergent (such as carbon emissions) if the tax, and the spending it supports, were based on empiricism.

There's no empiricism behind calling "carbon emissions" a "negative externality."  Carbon dioxide is a valuable part of the atmosphere, which stimulates plant growth, to the benefit of all humanity.

One of the big fallacies of anarchists is that negative externalities either don't exist or don't matter, as long as commons exist (and they always will) we will always have negative externalities.

Hardly.  The State is a negative externality, which we seek to remove.
Logged
"An armed society is a polite society" - this does not mean that we are polite because we fear each other.

We are not civilized because we are armed; we are armed because we are civilized..

crossonscout

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 815
Re: The Environment
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2013, 09:33:47 pm »

I'd argue that libertarianism in it's purest form IS anarchism... An = without, archy = rulers... Not necessarily without rules or governing "laws". (I.E. property rights and NAP)

Quote from: Merriam Webster Dictionary
Medieval Latin anarchia, from Greek, from anarchos having no ruler, from an- + archos ruler — more at arch-
First Known Use: 1539
Source = http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anarchy
Logged
"When I carry a gun, I don’t do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I’m looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don’t carry it because I’m afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn’t limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force. It removes force from the equation…and that’s why carrying a gun is a civilized act." - Why The Gun is Civilization

slothman

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 251
Re: The Environment
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2013, 11:09:43 pm »

I'd argue that libertarianism in it's purest form IS anarchism... An = without, archy = rulers... Not necessarily without rules or governing "laws". (I.E. property rights and NAP)

Medieval Latin anarchia, from Greek, from anarchos having no ruler, from an- + archos ruler — more at arch-
First Known Use: 1539
Source = http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anarchy



The derivation(sp) of anarchy doesn't mean much.
If you use that dictionary then the first line is "absence of government".


@MaineShark
How do you enforce a gov't without police?
Logged

Ward Griffiths

  • First 1000
  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1050
  • Canvas and Quicklime
Re: The Environment
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2013, 11:51:55 pm »


@MaineShark
How do you enforce a gov't without police?


Why would anybody want to "enforce a government"?  Things you don't like that your neighbors do?  Like, say, choose their own medications or manner of dress?  Pay for sex?

Crimes with victims don't need government enforcement.  "Crimes" without victims aren't crimes and don't need any enforcement.
Logged
--
Ward Griffiths    wdg3rd@comcast.net

Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.  (Denis Diderot)

MaineShark

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5044
Re: The Environment
« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2013, 06:08:00 am »

How do you enforce a gov't without police?

If it's a case where someone's rights have been violated, then s/he can seek anyone as a champion.  "Hey, that guy just stole my wallet!  Would you help me chase him down?"

Doesn't need to be "the police."
Logged
"An armed society is a polite society" - this does not mean that we are polite because we fear each other.

We are not civilized because we are armed; we are armed because we are civilized..

slothman

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 251
Re: The Environment
« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2013, 10:11:32 am »

Why would anybody want to "enforce a government"?
I meant enforce democraticly approved laws.


If it's a case where someone's rights have been violated, then s/he can seek anyone as a champion.  "Hey, that guy just stole my wallet!  Would you help me chase him down?"
Doesn't need to be "the police."

"Hey that guy is trying to get 'my', as I stole it, wallet! Will my big tough friends I work out with help get him for me?"
I can get all the friends you want, or don't want in this case.
Logged

MaineShark

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5044
Re: The Environment
« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2013, 11:18:40 am »

If it's a case where someone's rights have been violated, then s/he can seek anyone as a champion.  "Hey, that guy just stole my wallet!  Would you help me chase him down?"
Doesn't need to be "the police."
"Hey that guy is trying to get 'my', as I stole it, wallet! Will my big tough friends I work out with help get him for me?"
I can get all the friends you want, or don't want in this case.

What you're describing is closer to the current situation.

And you're using a double-standard.  No system is perfect.  Saying, "there could possibly be abuses if liberty prevailed" does not negate the fact that there are also abuses when liberty is suppressed.  Applying the same standard to both systems, then, has to come down to which system has greater abuses.

The quarter billion men, women, and defenseless children who were sacrificed on the altar of Statism in the last century - the billions more who were maimed, tortured, raped, starved, kidnapped, assaulted, enslaved, and oppressed - they stand as testimony to what Statism does.  What Statism has done every single time it has ever been tried.

Yeah... some mugger who works out with his friends can't really compare to the sort of evil that can be done by an institution designed to do violence upon innocents.
Logged
"An armed society is a polite society" - this does not mean that we are polite because we fear each other.

We are not civilized because we are armed; we are armed because we are civilized..

crossonscout

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 815
Re: The Environment
« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2013, 02:28:52 pm »

If it's a case where someone's rights have been violated, then s/he can seek anyone as a champion.  "Hey, that guy just stole my wallet!  Would you help me chase him down?"
Doesn't need to be "the police."
"Hey that guy is trying to get 'my', as I stole it, wallet! Will my big tough friends I work out with help get him for me?"
I can get all the friends you want, or don't want in this case.

What you're describing is closer to the current situation.

And you're using a double-standard.  No system is perfect.  Saying, "there could possibly be abuses if liberty prevailed" does not negate the fact that there are also abuses when liberty is suppressed.  Applying the same standard to both systems, then, has to come down to which system has greater abuses.

The quarter billion men, women, and defenseless children who were sacrificed on the altar of Statism in the last century - the billions more who were maimed, tortured, raped, starved, kidnapped, assaulted, enslaved, and oppressed - they stand as testimony to what Statism does.  What Statism has done every single time it has ever been tried.

Yeah... some mugger who works out with his friends can't really compare to the sort of evil that can be done by an institution designed to do violence upon innocents.

Couldn't have said it better myself man.
Logged
"When I carry a gun, I don’t do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I’m looking to be left alone. The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don’t carry it because I’m afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn’t limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force. It removes force from the equation…and that’s why carrying a gun is a civilized act." - Why The Gun is Civilization

plasma1010

  • Guest
Re: The Environment
« Reply #26 on: June 12, 2013, 02:49:42 pm »


I meant enforce democraticly approved laws.



You raise future generations with so little laws that you don't even need a police force to enforce them. Communities can handle their own court proceedings, and nobody is so stupid as to run through town firing a gun unless they are looking for suicide by another.
Logged

time4liberty

  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 922
Re: The Environment
« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2013, 04:15:35 am »

The overwhelming majority of people want to stop thieves, and hold them accountable.

It's the reason theft is illegal now, and it's also the reason that people and organizations looking to stop thieves will be more powerful than people and organizations looking to steal, in a free society.
Logged

time4liberty

  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 922
Re: The Environment
« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2013, 04:30:08 am »

Libertarians believe in having a police force? Right.

Organizations/people to apprehend killers, thieves, etc, yes. Organizations/people who enforce a monopoly for themselves, fund themselves by extorting money from people on threat of violence, and who will lock people who haven't harmed anyone in cages, whenever a politician tells them to, no.

So why not have an environment police association (EPA).
They would do the things we can't do for ourselves. Prevent drunk driving,

Whoever owns/operates a particular road would set regulations for its use. This would most likely include a prohibition on reckless/intoxicated driving.

prevent somebody from pissing in the stream.

If you piss in the stream (so to speak), you owe restitution to those downstream who were damaged. This can be handled in arbitration, or other local methods (see gandhi's idea of swaraj, for example).

We need to have a dedicated police force because who is going to spend years studying the nitrogen levels and its sources in Great Bay and determining its killing the eel grass. No private foundation will have the money nore the political power to do that.

Actually, lots of private foundations and universities do exactly that kind of research right now.

We need to have an organization funded by everyone and voted on by everyone

Fine by me. Feel free to start such an organization, and try to convince everyone to fund it.

But, if someone believes your organization to be wasteful, corrupt, ineffective, etc, and decides not to fund it, or to fund an alternative what are you going to do? If the answer is, "send men with guns to steal their house and lock them in a cage", that's not anything I want to have anything to do with.

that polices our lazy polluting asses. Sounds like taxes and govt to me.

I'm not a lazy polluting ass. Speak for yourself. And it's fine that you desire a particular organization to exist, but that doesn't give you a right to go around threatening people in order to extort their property from them.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Up