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Author Topic: Extended spreadsheet analysis: It's all over, folks!  (Read 12894 times)

Karl

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Re:Extended spreadsheet analysis: It's all over, folks!
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2003, 11:22:51 am »

Actually it does reflect those things. Just reflects them in an unbiased manner.

No, it does not.  If by "unbiased" you mean states it encapsulated within a uselessly abstract variable, then it might be "unbiased."  Unfortunately for this argument, there is no variable in the spreadsheet that remotely describes legal suseptability to our reforms.

Quote
FYI, Wyoming allows you to amend the state constitution from what I have read.

With 2/3 legislative vote, plus 50% or more of the popular vote.  An extraordinary proposition, indeed.  If you think that it will be easy to end school mandates this way, you're dreaming.  In NH, we can do it with a simple majority of the legislature after years of local experiments beforehand to bolster our case for ending statutory mandates.  It will be the biggest political fight of our agenda, at least until we decide to opt-out of Federal income taxes.
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Tony Stelik

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Re:Extended spreadsheet analysis: It's all over, folks!
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2003, 11:25:28 am »

Impressive, but
Most important are two things: Political climate (what it takes to change something)
Business: What we all will do there? Outdoor is good thing but to afford outdoor we need to make some money first.
Spreadsheet does not emphasizes enough this two most important factors (amateur successful politics and business)

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ZionCurtain

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Re:Extended spreadsheet analysis: It's all over, folks!
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2003, 11:28:52 am »

Impressive, but
Most important are two things: Political climate (what it takes to change something)
Business: What we all will do there? Outdoor is good thing but to afford outdoor we need to make some money first.
Spreadsheet does not emphasizes enough this two most important factors (amateur successful politics and business)


The people that live there sure seem to be able to afford outdoor activities. Just don't need to make 100,000 a year like you do in NH.
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Karl

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Re:Extended spreadsheet analysis: It's all over, folks!
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2003, 11:32:48 am »

Actually, if the freedom culture is sufficient, *and* interested parties are successful at providing alternatives, the WY state school system (or any other in a state with a Constitution mandating schooling) could be reduced to one teacher somewhere in a closet drawing a small salary to 'school' an empty room...

I'm concerned that in WY (and other western states), alternatives will be difficult to create under existing mandates.  Private schools might be superior to public schools, but will even a large fraction of residents switch over, when free and satisfactory public schools exist?  They haven't so far.
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jgmaynard

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Re:Extended spreadsheet analysis: It's all over, folks!
« Reply #19 on: July 01, 2003, 11:33:52 am »

No matter what ANYONE says, even Jason, it is not over until the vote is over.
Everyone has different weightings,  experiences, and impressions.

Don't you think it is awfully collectivist to follow one leader blindly?

Study up on all the facts with an open mind, and vote for what you believe to be the best the best choices for liberty in our lifetime.

That way we all win. :)

JM
« Last Edit: July 01, 2003, 11:34:48 am by jgmaynard »
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ZionCurtain

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Re:Extended spreadsheet analysis: It's all over, folks!
« Reply #20 on: July 01, 2003, 11:34:22 am »

Actually it does reflect those things. Just reflects them in an unbiased manner.

No, it does not.  If by "unbiased" you mean states it encapsulated within a uselessly abstract variable, then it might be "unbiased."  Unfortunately for this argument, there is no variable in the spreadsheet that remotely describes legal suseptability to our reforms.

Quote
FYI, Wyoming allows you to amend the state constitution from what I have read.

With 2/3 legislative vote, plus 50% or more of the popular vote.  An extraordinary proposition, indeed.  If you think that it will be easy to end school mandates this way, you're dreaming.  In NH, we can do it with a simple majority of the legislature after years of local experiments beforehand to bolster our case for ending statutory mandates.  It will be the biggest political fight of our agenda, at least until we decide to opt-out of Federal income taxes.
Do you think it will be easier to get 51% of the legislature to vote to end school mandates in NH? I see it as a tough climb in any state. Have to start smaller, show the people that you know what you are doing first. Maybe do a voucher system at first were the money you would be spending per student at public schools can go to whatever type of schooling you choose. When the people find out there is better options than the current system it would be a easier sell. Heck ,Wyoming was the first state to let women vote, why can't they be the first state to end the school mandate?
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varrin

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Re:Extended spreadsheet analysis: It's all over, folks!
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2003, 11:38:52 am »

I'm concerned that in WY (and other western states), alternatives will be difficult to create under existing mandates.  Private schools might be superior to public schools, but will even a large fraction of residents switch over, when free and satisfactory public schools exist?  They haven't so far.

If we can fund them in such a way that the economic impact to the average person will be minimal, they will.  The economic impact of homeschooling is dramatic (it requires one spouse to *not* work).  Making that value judgement costs families a *lot* of money (not just the few hundred bux it takes to buy cirriculum).  Yet the exponential rise of homeschooling is evidence that people *will* choose alternatives if they can simply be convinced to doing that.

If we can deregulate schooling (without actually totally eliminate state schools), we can likely prompt a significan exidus from the state schools.  Once that happens, it'll be *much* easier to convince the overwhelming majority of people in any state (even Wyoming) who are *paying* for state schools but not using them to vote the government out of their wallets for that particular expense.  If they really like state schools, they could put that in the 'tax me more' column ;-)

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Re:Extended spreadsheet analysis: It's all over, folks!
« Reply #22 on: July 01, 2003, 11:40:37 am »

Maybe do a voucher system at first were the money you would be spending per student at public schools can go to whatever type of schooling you choose.

The problem is not the operation of the schools, it's the funding of the schools.  Nix the vouchers.  They'll only prolong and undermine our efforts to end state schooling.

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Karl

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Re:Extended spreadsheet analysis: It's all over, folks!
« Reply #23 on: July 01, 2003, 11:45:21 am »

Do you think it will be easier to get 51% of the legislature to vote to end school mandates in NH?  I see it as a tough climb in any state.

Yes, I do believe it will be easier.  But will it be "easy" per se?  Heck no!  Like I said, it will be one of the biggest fights of our agenda, and success isn't assured, even in NH.  But it sure beats trying to amend the constitiution and giving an "in" to the masses, who are more suseptible to the propaganda put out by our powerful opposition.  We might only get one chance, if any, to pass the vote.

Quote
Have to start smaller, show the people that you know what you are doing first. Maybe do a voucher system at first were the money you would be spending per student at public schools can go to whatever type of schooling you choose. When the people find out there is better options than the current system it would be a easier sell. Heck ,Wyoming was the first state to let women vote, why can't they be the first state to end the school mandate?

A voucher system may promote the establishment of private schools, but would do nothing to solve the mandate problem.  It would be great if WY were the first state to end school mandates.  But I just see NH's chances of doing so are far greater.
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Kelton Baker

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What the Spreadsheets Tell Us
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2003, 12:35:09 pm »

The spreadsheet doesn't tell us that the western states have government school mandates in their constitutions that may stonewall our most important reforms.

The spreadsheet doesn't reflect NH's huge electoral system advantage that will give far more porcupines the critical political experience needed to seek more competitive higher offices.

The spreadsheet doesn't accurately reflect the jobs picture, the single most important factor in our daily lives.

I admit that the title of this thread comes off a little bit presumptuous, Karl.


What I am trying to demonstrate is that a lot of the factors that people consider have already been addressed, discussed and quantified in a spreadsheet.  People should not ignore this vast quantity of information if they want to make a fairly rational ranking of all ten states.
Zxcv even admits about one part of his spreadsheet report that "This exercise was meant more as a fun spreadsheet exercise, than as something one could hang one's hat on."  Too bad he is out touring Wyoming at the moment, and it is difficult for him to defend all of this.

But to decide to ignore [and dismiss] a spreadsheet report representing hundreds of hours of research that has gone into it, I think, is dishonest.

True, I only pointed-out a few factors, you bring-up many more.  Though Jobs was an issue that was discussed in Zxcv's big spreadsheet and report under Quality factors, I just chose not to bring-up every single item.

I haven't even seen Zxcv's latest everything-but-the -kitchen-sink spreadsheet, but lately he has been busily entering in everything ever brought up, good or bad data it seems (sorry that may not be right, just a perception there)  I think someone who has one of the most recent spreadsheets can clarify.
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« Last Edit: July 01, 2003, 12:45:22 pm by exitus... »
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ZionCurtain

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Re:Extended spreadsheet analysis: It's all over, folks!
« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2003, 01:15:53 pm »

No matter what ANYONE says, even Jason, it is not over until the vote is over.
Everyone has different weightings,  experiences, and impressions.

Don't you think it is awfully collectivist to follow one leader blindly?

Study up on all the facts with an open mind, and vote for what you believe to be the best the best choices for liberty in our lifetime.

That way we all win. :)

JM
Is that not what you are doing. Look at the facts, not that the Gov said call me "Greg".
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Karl

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Re:Extended spreadsheet analysis: It's all over, folks!
« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2003, 01:23:41 pm »

exitus,

The problem with any spreadsheet analysis is that it is impossible to give accurate weights to the various factors, and critical variables, such as those you quoted, are missing entirely.  Some claim that the spreadsheet is objective, yet its results are based on extremely subjective choices on weights, in which several vital factors are missing and essentially given the weight of "0."  If the spreadsheet was intended to be a primarily a "fun exercise" then why is it being promoted as the tool of choice for state selection?
« Last Edit: July 01, 2003, 01:26:35 pm by Karl »
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Rearden

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Re:Extended spreadsheet analysis: It's all over, folks!
« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2003, 02:19:33 pm »

Do you think it will be easier to get 51% of the legislature to vote to end school mandates in NH? I see it as a tough climb in any state.

I've poured over the NH RSA's, and have been unable to find any sort of state mandate for public education, unlike the other states (except for Vermont).  It seems to me that a town could simply vote for tax credits for private schoolers or homeschoolers, and within short order close the public schools for good. and there's nothing the state legislature could do about it.

In fact, the NH state constitution forbids unfunded state mandates on the local towns.  



Advantage -- New Hampshire!!!
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ZionCurtain

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Re:Extended spreadsheet analysis: It's all over, folks!
« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2003, 02:26:54 pm »

Do you think it will be easier to get 51% of the legislature to vote to end school mandates in NH? I see it as a tough climb in any state.

I've poured over the NH RSA's, and have been unable to find any sort of state mandate for public education, unlike the other states (except for Vermont).  It seems to me that a town could simply vote for tax credits for private schoolers or homeschoolers, and within short order close the public schools for good. and there's nothing the state legislature could do about it.

In fact, the NH state constitution forbids unfunded state mandates on the local towns.  



Advantage -- New Hampshire!!!
One advantage out of 100+ for Wyoming. I guess there is no need for further research.
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Penfist

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Re:Extended spreadsheet analysis: It's all over, folks!
« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2003, 02:34:15 pm »

The more silly statements you make in defense of Wyoming, the harder it will be for people on this board to vote for it when the time comes.

Is that a hard concept? If something tastes great when you first bite into it, and then leaves a lingering foul taste, most people find it unpalatable and won't eat it again.

Zion, my friend, you're the aftertaste on the fine state of Wyoming. By defending it so vigorously and unreasoningly, you are making it less palatable for others.

I'm trying to help you out, here. Seriously.
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