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Author Topic: Marry A Foreigner For Freedom!  (Read 18855 times)

Keti

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Re: Marry A Foreigner For Freedom!
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2006, 11:10:39 pm »

Don't get me wrong; I think this is a profoundly stupid idea.
If it works, I don't care.
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Doug Linder

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Re: Marry A Foreigner For Freedom!
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2006, 02:27:38 pm »

Terminating a marriage is wrong

Really?  Why?

Are you saying that these government-sanctioned marriages aren't really marriages at all? Are you saying they are false marriages?

Whether they are "true" or "false", the government has aboslutely nothing to do with it.  It is only a matter between teh people involved.


But, I am curious as to why you question the legitimacy of government-sanctioned marriages.

And I'm curious why you put any importance on it.  What does the government have to do with my personal relationship with another person?


Last time I checked, lots of people treat marriages carried out by judges as the real thing.

And lots of people don't.  Shrug.
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Doug Linder

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Re: Marry A Foreigner For Freedom!
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2006, 02:51:10 pm »

Don't get me wrong; I think this is a profoundly stupid idea.

I don't think it's stupid at all.  Everyone's business is their own, including why they get married.  It's not for me or you to say if their reasons are stupid.  Or, at least, if we say so they are completely correect to say "it's none of your damn business."

However, while I don't find it a stupid idea, I doubt it would work very well.  Even with marriages of convenience it's advisable that the people at least get along relatively well, and that by itself can be tough.

I do think it would be nice to have a Libertarian Dataing Service in general, where singles of all kinds - libertarians, FSP members, foreigners, whoever - could meet up.  I'm single, and I'd like to get married at some point, foreign or not.  Since the fact that I actually care about politics is often what scares women away, it seems logical that maybe looking for a mate within the group is a good idea.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2006, 10:00:50 am by Doug Linder »
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Re: Marry A Foreigner For Freedom!
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2006, 04:16:28 pm »

Terminating a marriage is wrong, and we should not be encouraging it.
Are you saying that these government-sanctioned marriages aren't really marriages at all? Are you saying they are false marriages? If that is the case, then if it's a false marriage, then I have no problem with people marrying on impulse then terminating it the next day.
But, I am curious as to why you question the legitimacy of government-sanctioned marriages. Last time I checked, lots of people treat marriages carried out by judges as the real thing.

EDIT: Perhaps I should mention that I am a "Browne" libertarian, believing that government should be reduced to just protecting people from violence, so there's no doubt in my mind as to whether government and marriage should be completely separate.

Very interesting reaction.  It seems to me that you're the one placing relevance on the importance of a slip of paper signed by a nameless, faceless bureaucrat in a cold office somewhere.  Is that what marriage is about to you?  It's odd to think that an institution that you're defending so nobly is as meaningless to you as that.

This is a form of using worthless laws to create an advantageous situation for all of us.  Marriage or any other form of union between two people will exist whether your bureaucrat says it will or not.  You can have this legal contract on record with the overinflated government who seems to believe they're controlling every aspect of your life (including telling you who you are and aren't allowed to love based on their worthless contracts), while being actually married to another person because of your bond, love, religion, or whatever auspices you have chosen to be married under.

Why do you (and others) feel so strongly against this seemingly perfect demonstration of bureaucratic bumbling?




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cvramen

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Re: Marry A Foreigner For Freedom!
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2006, 05:11:18 pm »

Why do you (and others) feel so strongly against this seemingly perfect demonstration of bureaucratic bumbling?

Oh, I agree that marriage should be for two people to decide, not the government.

I was unaware that (and it seems that Brian Sullivan has pointed out to me) most of libertarians do not view a government-sanctioned marriage as a "real" marriage. If they see it as nothing more than a piece of paper signed by a judge, sure, I have no problem with this plan.

Marriage is a serious contract between two people; A government-sanctioned marriage is just another silly government program. I've always believed that- I just didn't know that most libertarians feel that way too.
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FreeBoB

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Re: Marry A Foreigner For Freedom!
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2006, 05:18:55 pm »

It's as real as owing back taxes!  It's a license.

In this proposed circumstance, I would imagine we'd find a receptive crowd.
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Keti

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Re: Marry A Foreigner For Freedom!
« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2006, 07:44:12 pm »

I was unaware that (and it seems that Brian Sullivan has pointed out to me) most of libertarians do not view a government-sanctioned marriage as a "real" marriage.
It's real. It's a real piece of paper and it really lets someone move to the US. That's as real as it needs to be.
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Rocketman

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Re: Marry A Foreigner For Freedom!
« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2006, 09:23:58 pm »

Don't get me wrong; I think this is a profoundly stupid idea.

I don't think it's stupid at all. Everyone's business is their own, including why they get married. It's not for me or you to say if their reasons are stupid. Or, at least, if we say so they are completely correect to say "it's none of your damn business."

However, while I don't find it a stupid idea, I doubt it would work very well. Even with marriages of convenience it's advisable that the people at least get along relatively well, and that by itself can be tough.

I do think it would be nice to have a Libertarian Dataing Service in general, where singles of all kinds - libertarians, FSP members, foreigners, whoever - could meet up. I'm single, and I'd like to get married at some point, foreign or not. Since the fact that I actually care about politics is often what sacres women away, it seems logical that maybe looking for a mate within the group is a good idea.

The main reason I think it's a stupid idea is that I doubt it would work very well.  That alone is a pretty strong basis for calling an idea stupid.  Brainstorming leads to a lot of dumb ideas; the trick is sorting good from bad, and acting on the good ones.  The libertarian dating service is a much better idea, although I'm afraid the male to female ratio might be an obstacle.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2006, 09:28:39 pm by Rocketman »
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FreeBoB

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Re: Marry A Foreigner For Freedom!
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2006, 09:55:27 pm »

All you need one one.  ;D
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Keti

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Re: Marry A Foreigner For Freedom!
« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2006, 10:31:49 am »

The main reason I think it's a stupid idea is that I doubt it would work very well.  That alone is a pretty strong basis for calling an idea stupid.  Brainstorming leads to a lot of dumb ideas; the trick is sorting good from bad, and acting on the good ones.  The libertarian dating service is a much better idea, although I'm afraid the male to female ratio might be an obstacle.
If it gets one person in a foreign country to the Free State, it worked.
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Ward Griffiths

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Re: Marry A Foreigner For Freedom!
« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2006, 11:19:34 am »

Why do you (and others) feel so strongly against this seemingly perfect demonstration of bureaucratic bumbling?

Oh, I agree that marriage should be for two people to decide, not the government.

I was unaware that (and it seems that Brian Sullivan has pointed out to me) most of libertarians do not view a government-sanctioned marriage as a "real" marriage. If they see it as nothing more than a piece of paper signed by a judge, sure, I have no problem with this plan.

Marriage is a serious contract between two people; A government-sanctioned marriage is just another silly government program. I've always believed that- I just didn't know that most libertarians feel that way too.

Two (or more's the merrier) plus if they feel the need, the G-D of their choice.  Government is generally only involved for tax purposes, and few bureaucrats can count past two.

And if divorce was such a sin, it wouldn't be so easy under Mosaic Law.  (Funny how the Xians pick and choose which of "G-D's Laws" they want to use.

Not that I give a rat's ass about the opinions of statists, worshippers or any G-D.  I'm happily married and there's a chance we may be expanding this relationship and asking no permission from G-D, government or neighbors.  Polyandry suits me just fine.
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CNHT

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Re: Marry A Foreigner For Freedom!
« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2006, 07:22:14 am »

Marriage is a contract (formal or informal) between two consenting adults.  Most couples choose to acquire the government's sanction, but that isn't what legitimizes the marriage.  Some religious types would argue that marriage is only legitimate if there's an appropriate ceremony, but still, marriage is a contract between two consenting adults who want to be joined together in a domestic partnership.

In the case of a free stater marrying a foreign free stater, the only contract between the "partners" would be to agree that the marriage was a pretend marriage designed to fool the government into granting a person citizenship.

Don't get me wrong; I think this is a profoundly stupid idea.

Yes especially since under certain laws if you are legally married you must SHARE your assets with the other person whether you stay together or not and especially if you divorce they can really take you for all you're worth. Not a good idea for some.

And I'm also just old fashioned enough that I think that no matter who presides over your contract, marriages should not be made if they are not intended to be kept...

I for one do not ever intend to marry anyone, ever again, so I can't help on this idea anyway.

But, I'm Mediterranean, live 4 miles from Rocketman, and he has had my lasagna the first day he was here! LOL So at least he's had that much! LOL

CNHT

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Re: Marry A Foreigner For Freedom!
« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2006, 07:24:14 am »

Terminating a marriage is wrong

Really?  Why?

I guess it doesn't matter how the contract was made or under whose authority, just that marriage is supposed to be forever and it's not nice to deceive your partner if they think it is and you know at the outset it isn't?

Simon Jester

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Re: Marry A Foreigner For Freedom!
« Reply #28 on: August 19, 2006, 10:55:51 am »

Quote
I have done my part.... Grin  (I think  Huh)
Yea me too :P

However, even though I did marry a free stater who just HAPPENS to be a foreigner, I think that purposely marrying them just to get foreign free staters in the US is a really dumb idea.

First of all, you have to apply for marriage visas and the like to get the spouse here. Doesn't sound like a big deal, but you do have to sign a paper admitting that the marriage is in good faith and is not a sham just to get the person a green card. If it is a sham, you could be in some deep shit. Save your philosophical thoughts as to whether the government has a right to control marriages in the first place because this is the reality of the issue.

Secondly, you also have to submit an affadavit of support vowing that you will support your spouse financially until he/she gets citizenship or dies or leaves the country. If you sponsor a fake spouse and the marriage is a sham, there's a strong possibility they might have just used the FSP cover themselves to get in here and then get to milk you for all your money. Any debts, medical bills, etc. they incur are YOUR responsibility to pay for. It doesn't sound like such a sweet deal when you consider that.

Lastly, If the government were to look online (I would htink they would have something better to do, but heck, they're government employees) and discover a thread titled "Marry a foreigner for freedom" it might just cause them to look much further into anyone who just happens to be a free state member who just happens to be married to a foreigner and is applying for a spouse visa. This in turn could make it a lot harder for those of us who HAVE married in good faith and would just like to live together some point during their marriage instead of spending $1000-$2000 in order to see one another 3 times a year.

(Sure, I could always move to Finland: marrying someone there gets you an automatic right to stay there, but I would be utterly unemployable there and our plan is to move AWAY from high taxes, not into them).

If you want, you could make a special effort to meet with FSP members abroad, and see if something happens, but I wouldn't recommend faking the whole thing. That's just plan dumb.
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Mike Lorrey

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Re: Marry A Foreigner For Freedom!
« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2006, 01:50:43 pm »

Quote
I have done my part.... Grin  (I think  Huh)
Yea me too :P

However, even though I did marry a free stater who just HAPPENS to be a foreigner, I think that purposely marrying them just to get foreign free staters in the US is a really dumb idea.

First of all, you have to apply for marriage visas and the like to get the spouse here. Doesn't sound like a big deal, but you do have to sign a paper admitting that the marriage is in good faith and is not a sham just to get the person a green card. If it is a sham, you could be in some deep shit. Save your philosophical thoughts as to whether the government has a right to control marriages in the first place because this is the reality of the issue.

Secondly, you also have to submit an affadavit of support vowing that you will support your spouse financially until he/she gets citizenship or dies or leaves the country. If you sponsor a fake spouse and the marriage is a sham, there's a strong possibility they might have just used the FSP cover themselves to get in here and then get to milk you for all your money. Any debts, medical bills, etc. they incur are YOUR responsibility to pay for. It doesn't sound like such a sweet deal when you consider that.

Lastly, If the government were to look online (I would htink they would have something better to do, but heck, they're government employees) and discover a thread titled "Marry a foreigner for freedom" it might just cause them to look much further into anyone who just happens to be a free state member who just happens to be married to a foreigner and is applying for a spouse visa. This in turn could make it a lot harder for those of us who HAVE married in good faith and would just like to live together some point during their marriage instead of spending $1000-$2000 in order to see one another 3 times a year.

(Sure, I could always move to Finland: marrying someone there gets you an automatic right to stay there, but I would be utterly unemployable there and our plan is to move AWAY from high taxes, not into them).

If you want, you could make a special effort to meet with FSP members abroad, and see if something happens, but I wouldn't recommend faking the whole thing. That's just plan dumb.

While my original idea was half farcical, I do agree that any marriage should involve a relationship that is real enough to get along with the other person in the same household for an indefinite period, but that given the number of foreign members we have, the only ways to get them in the country, other than as illegal aliens hoping for amnesty at some time in the future, is via marriage visas or by the H1-B hiring visa program. For this reason, we should treat our foreign members as "trapped behind enemy lines" and make special efforts to help them jump the Iron Curtain...
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