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Author Topic: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.  (Read 14531 times)

colovion

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Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2006, 01:39:32 pm »

THe problem you are going to see with advocating the use of those cameras is twofold, firstly who is responsible for purchasing the cameras, and secondly who is going to monitor them for you. THen where does the money for these items and come from? the taxpayers?  And when the FSPers refuse to pay their taxes (as in RK & KD refusing to pay property taxes) how do you get the money? Do you go in and seize their house?  Because then sir, you have initiated the use of force for a social program.

...

The same arguments can be made for any social program currently in existence, as well as fire and police departments.


Well, if you can argue that the police department's job (in part) is to patrol public areas looking for crimes, then cameras would simply be another tool in their arsenal, a legitimate expense on their part.  Since the infrastructure of the commons would belong to the administration of the city (in that they'd be the one's ok-ing expenses for repairs, improvements and such out of the city budget), and they pay for the police protetion, they'd be responsible for it.

I don't have a problem with property taxes... it is a pretty fair way to tax people for necessary government services.  They own property, they have a stake in the administration of that area.  I'm not one of those "taxation is theft" people, it's only theft if it's for unjustified purposes IMHO.  Paying for a police force to protect you (definitely a legitimate role for the government) is fair, so payng the police budget out of property taxes is fair.

If people had their own cameras on their own property (watching their own property, of course), that wouldn't phase me either.  I do have a surveillance camera on my property, crime prevention and security are really the main thrust of my job (and the only parts I really like, it's a challenge.)  They aren't the be-all-end-all of security, but they can be very useful parts of an overall system.
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colovion

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Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2006, 01:46:37 pm »

I grew up in Ann Arbor, and my folks still live there.  Thanks for the news about the minwage change - incredible how stupid union-leashed politicians can be, isn't it?

I'm very familiar with the Ann Arbor area, and its major university.  It never ceases to amaze how stupid politicians can be, and by extension the people who keep voting for them.
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JonM

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Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2006, 01:48:46 pm »

Well, if you can argue that the police department's job (in part) is to patrol public areas looking for crimes, then cameras would simply be another tool in their arsenal, a legitimate expense on their part.  Since the infrastructure of the commons would belong to the administration of the city (in that they'd be the one's ok-ing expenses for repairs, improvements and such out of the city budget), and they pay for the police protetion, they'd be responsible for it.
I believe the official position as upheld in courts is that the police have no obligation to protect you from crime.  They are there to investigate a crime after it has occurred.
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colovion

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Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2006, 02:00:18 pm »

After re-reading the thread, my last message was probably a little too harsh.  There is nothing wrong with prioritizing your "pet" issues over ones you feel are less important.  You sound as though you are starting to think through what you envision as the proper role of government, and after a bit more introspect, you might be able to sign in good conscience.

As others have pointed out, being 100% consistent (a "purist", if you like) is not required.

Please note that while I am an active volunteer for the group, my opinion is in no way the official position of the FSP.

No offense taken.  I'm more than willing to agree to disagree on some issues, provided the main thrust is getting rid of excessive government and protecting freedom.  The only person I know who will agree with me 100% politically is, well, me.  We all have our quriks, some are bigger than others.

There are things that Bush has done I do find fault with, but spreading liberty isn't one of them.  I know, that wasn't the stated reason for the war... but it is a noble goal nonetheless.  Failing to stop (or even significantly slow) government waste... much more disturbing IMHO.
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Roycerson

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Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2006, 02:50:35 pm »

I believe the official position as upheld in courts is that the police have no obligation to protect you from crime.  They are there to investigate a crime after it has occurred.

I'd like to see that data if it's available.
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He who is slow to believe anything and everything is of great understanding, for belief in one false principle is the beginning of all unwisdom....Anton LaVey

JonM

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Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
« Reply #20 on: March 31, 2006, 03:07:49 pm »

I believe the official position as upheld in courts is that the police have no obligation to protect you from crime.  They are there to investigate a crime after it has occurred.

I'd like to see that data if it's available.
http://www.allsafedefense.com/news/CopsDontProtect.htm

SCOTUS went 7-2 that the police have no duty to protect you, and that was for someone with a restraining order against the person she wanted protection from.
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Dave Mincin

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Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
« Reply #21 on: March 31, 2006, 06:09:50 pm »

Howdy colovion,

Count me among those welcoming you, and hopefully one day one of the folks who meets you at the border, with a handshake, smile, and hardy thank-you for joining us in NH.

Since I haven't said it lately, at least in public, thought I would give you my read on what is happening, with both the FSP, and us in NH. :)

As I see it the FSP is the bus to deliver freedom folks to NH.  First step is really believing that what we are about is really the right thing for you.  Forget all this crap about do I agree about everything, and with everyone involved? ???  Hey my friend, do you care about FREEDOM?  Do you believe Folks make better decisions than government?
Do you believe the government is out of control and stealing our FREEDOM ?  Are you willing to trust your neighbor?  Come to NH and not only work for Freedom, but also make her your home?  If you can say yes to the above, expect we will be most gratful to have you join us.

In the meantime I'm hopeful you will do all you can to spread the word about the FSP, and about our little misson to bring
Freedom back to the Foks!

Warm regards,
Dave Mincin

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freedomroad

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Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
« Reply #22 on: March 31, 2006, 06:10:50 pm »

Well, if you can argue that the police department's job (in part) is to patrol public areas looking for crimes, then cameras would simply be another tool in their arsenal, a legitimate expense on their part.  Since the infrastructure of the commons would belong to the administration of the city (in that they'd be the one's ok-ing expenses for repairs, improvements and such out of the city budget), and they pay for the police protetion, they'd be responsible for it.
I believe the official position as upheld in courts is that the police have no obligation to protect you from crime.  They are there to investigate a crime after it has occurred.

Yes, and this was always the point of police.  They were never intented to prevent crime.
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margomaps

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Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
« Reply #23 on: March 31, 2006, 07:17:34 pm »

I also want to make it clear that my post wasn't intended to be negative.  You seemed to be wondering whether your views -- in particular views that you already suspected would be controversial around here -- were consistent with the FSP's.  I simply stated my opinion that those particular views likely were not.

I agree with what others in this thread have stated: the FSP does not have a "party" mentality, and there are certainly a wide range of views on many important issues.  The fact that you seem to be pro-liberty on economic issues is important re: fitting in with the FSP's SOI.  You've also made a few comments about how you understand (and don't disagree with) arguments in favor of personal liberty, even on subjects you're not interested in (drugs).  That probably makes you a good candidate for this whole FSP thing.

On another note, your statement about not opposing taxes when they're justified is interesting.  Think of socialist-style welfare programs: someone in government will provide a justification for taxes to support program X.  Often the justification is weak or flawed, but so long as the right politician or a majority of the voters supports it, it's de facto justified.  The number of projects to be tax-funded is never-ending, and there will always be a politician eager to tax you to fund it.  It doesn't matter if you don't feel the tax is justified.
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David Wolfe

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Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2006, 07:21:59 pm »

Yes, and this was always the point of police.  They were never intented to prevent crime.

Of course the knowledge that the police will investigate a crime does in fact prevent some crime.  And many departments provide a visible police presence in areas and at events where they want to prevent crime.  That is hard to square with the SCOTUS's view that the police have no obligation to prevent crime if that is really their view.  There is a lot that's hard to square with the SCOTUS's thinking, but in this case it's more likely that they only said that the police cannot be held liable for not preventing a crime.  Not that the police were never intended to prevent it.
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freedomroad

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Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2006, 08:38:59 pm »

 There is a lot that's hard to square with the SCOTUS's thinking, but in this case it's more likely that they only said that the police cannot be held liable for not preventing a crime.  Not that the police were never intended to prevent it.

Right, that is what you would get from the SCOTUS thinking. What I was talking about was not a recent court statement, but the whole point of government police.

Another point I'd like to mention is that you can support limited taxes (like I do) and agree with the FSP SOI.  The SOI calls for a government (although you can take a smaller view) and that government has certain goals.  It is not against the SOI to want these government goals to be paid with taxes of various types.
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RalphBorsodi

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Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
« Reply #26 on: April 01, 2006, 12:30:09 am »

Quote
The SOI calls for a government (although you can take a smaller view) and that government has certain goals.  It is not against the SOI to want these government goals to be paid with taxes of various types.

In your opinion does the SOI's "smaller view" include no government at all?
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freedomroad

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Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
« Reply #27 on: April 01, 2006, 01:19:58 am »

Quote
The SOI calls for a government (although you can take a smaller view) and that government has certain goals.  It is not against the SOI to want these government goals to be paid with taxes of various types.

In your opinion does the SOI's "smaller view" include no government at all?

It may to some people.  It says, "maximum".
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RalphBorsodi

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Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
« Reply #28 on: April 01, 2006, 02:17:17 am »

Quote
The SOI calls for a government (although you can take a smaller view) and that government has certain goals.  It is not against the SOI to want these government goals to be paid with taxes of various types.

In your opinion does the SOI's "smaller view" include no government at all?

It may to some people.  It says, "maximum".

Do you think the inevitable conflict that will be created between anarchists and minarchist faction is more or less of a burden than the effect that the anarchist position is going to have on opponents to the FSP in the larger community within the state?

To put it another way - do you not think it would have made more sense to state explicitly like the SOI had previously that the sole role of government was to protect life, liberty and property making the FSP a decidely minarchist rather than anarchist project?

It would be interesting to do a scientific poll of the folks who have moved so far what percentage claim to be anarchists. My hunch is that it is disproportionate to the final tally when 20K move.
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freedomroad

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Re: I like the idea, but I'm not quite sold.
« Reply #29 on: April 01, 2006, 02:49:13 am »

Do you think the inevitable conflict that will be created between anarchists and minarchist faction is more or less of a burden than the effect that the anarchist position is going to have on opponents to the FSP in the larger community within the state?

I think that is a loaded question.

Quote
To put it another way - do you not think it would have made more sense to state explicitly like the SOI had previously that the sole role of government was to protect life, liberty and property making the FSP a decidely minarchist rather than anarchist project?

The FSP is about recruiting small government activists to NH.  I don't see a problem with that.
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