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Author Topic: Liberty Dollar Bank or CU  (Read 15179 times)

lloydbob1

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Re: Liberty Dollar Bank or CU
« Reply #30 on: April 08, 2006, 05:28:38 pm »

No FDIC would probably be the result of not complying with the feds SSN requirement.  You might be able to get private insurance.
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Power Penguin

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Re: Liberty Dollar Bank or CU
« Reply #31 on: April 10, 2006, 01:00:51 am »

The FDIC is literally a sham. Even congressional investigations proved this, albiet nothing was done to fix the situation of course.

Back to the topic though, I believe it would be in reality quite easy to start this bank by doing it mostly on-line initially. For both privacy/integrity reasons and for the very real cost-lowering benefits it would have, the best modus operandi would be to construct the buisiness as a "web of services", IE acting as a single go-to point for the utilization of a number of existing third-party services. It would act in a customer-transparent way, and would enable the business and it's clients to operate in a distributed fasion that would minimize if not eliminate the chances of some "unfortunate accidents" instigated by jealous agents/legislators or every-day bank robbers/scammers.

Give me a bit of time and some knowlegeable people, and I guarantee you that I can come up with a working model. Scout's honor.
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Steve and Family

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Re: Liberty Dollar Bank or CU
« Reply #32 on: April 10, 2006, 09:11:45 am »

Instead of an LD bank, why not just a bank that issues its own notes, based on stored gold and silver assets, the way dollars USED to be.  That way you wouldn't have to absorb half the cost in liberty dollar markup. 
Caleb

I would have to agree with you on this Caleb, the reason the I feel that the liberty dollar idea is flawed is because they place a dollar value on the bullion coin. So when you exchange your certificate, even if silver prices have fluctuated you still get the same amount of silver. This is why the fed's stopped using silver in U.S. coinage, because the silver content soon became worth more than the face value of the coin. A certificate that is issued in lieu of the hard commodity, so you don't have to carry around several heavy ounces of silver in your pocket, should have a value written on it expressed in # of ounces of silver the certificate can be exchanged for, not a dollar amount. This way as the value of the commodity fluctuates, so does the value of the certificate in your pocket.
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Elwar

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Re: Liberty Dollar Bank or CU
« Reply #33 on: April 10, 2006, 03:20:18 pm »

Actually, I don't think Liberty Dollars are all that bad if businesses would treat it as they would any other ounce of .999 pure silver.

T-shirt: 1 ounce of .999 silver
jacket: 2 ounces of .999 silver

That way competing companies that coin silver could get into the act and the conversion cost could get smaller and smaller.

I still think the best route for that type of coinage is to have advertisers pay you to put their logo on one side of the coin to pay
for the production costs.
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Re: Liberty Dollar Bank or CU
« Reply #34 on: April 17, 2006, 02:49:07 am »

The Phoenix Dollar can be customized like this. Check the site for more details (www.phoenixdollar.com). Personally, I don't think it matters that much, because spending the bills specifically and redeeming them for metals are two entirely dfifferent things. The coins are the actual thing, so I'd personally make them be worth spot.

Hey these things say NEGOTIABLE on them guys you can decide whether you want their value to be their face value or their current spot metal value. I think a lot of ALD opposers don't know or remember this.

As a seller, I would want to set it at whatever is lower, and as a buyer you'd want to go with whatever's higher. It's econ in action kiddies ;)
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Mike Lorrey

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Re: Liberty Dollar Bank or CU
« Reply #35 on: May 04, 2006, 05:59:27 pm »

Instead of an LD bank, why not just a bank that issues its own notes, based on stored gold and silver assets, the way dollars USED to be.  That way you wouldn't have to absorb half the cost in liberty dollar markup. 
Caleb

I would have to agree with you on this Caleb, the reason the I feel that the liberty dollar idea is flawed is because they place a dollar value on the bullion coin. So when you exchange your certificate, even if silver prices have fluctuated you still get the same amount of silver. This is why the fed's stopped using silver in U.S. coinage, because the silver content soon became worth more than the face value of the coin. A certificate that is issued in lieu of the hard commodity, so you don't have to carry around several heavy ounces of silver in your pocket, should have a value written on it expressed in # of ounces of silver the certificate can be exchanged for, not a dollar amount. This way as the value of the commodity fluctuates, so does the value of the certificate in your pocket.

No, the feds stopped using silver in US coinage because they stopped recognising the Mint Act, which specified a dollar as x grains of silver, which had been recognised as the value of a dollar long before the US existed (going back to the Joachimsthaler). When you specify a dollar as equal to x grains of silver or gold, its value in dollars does not change. What does change is the ability of government to spend beyond its means, which is why deficit spending is always a hallmark of a government issuing fraudulent money.

Bernard offers the ALD with a dollar denomination on it today for the same reason that the feds, once again issue silver dollars with $1 on it: an easy to use face value. That $1 silver coin minted by the US today is sold for $20 FRN or a $20 ALD is only indicative of the devaluation of the dollar. While the federal reserve issues its debt money with a market value 1/20th that of a lawful US mint silver coin of the same denomination illustrates that while the US mint is still bound by the mint act when it coins silver dollars, it empowers the federal reserve to debase the currency with debt currency that would plummet in value if the government made them call it something else.

Last year I was working on a proposal for a Debit Union, which would be the libertarian equivalent of a credit union.
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Steve and Family

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Re: Liberty Dollar Bank or CU
« Reply #36 on: May 14, 2006, 04:08:23 pm »

No, the feds stopped using silver in US coinage because they stopped recognising the Mint Act, which specified a dollar as x grains of silver, which had been recognised as the value of a dollar long before the US existed (going back to the Joachimsthaler). When you specify a dollar as equal to x grains of silver or gold, its value in dollars does not change. What does change is the ability of government to spend beyond its means, which is why deficit spending is always a hallmark of a government issuing fraudulent money.

Bernard offers the ALD with a dollar denomination on it today for the same reason that the feds, once again issue silver dollars with $1 on it: an easy to use face value. That $1 silver coin minted by the US today is sold for $20 FRN or a $20 ALD is only indicative of the devaluation of the dollar. While the federal reserve issues its debt money with a market value 1/20th that of a lawful US mint silver coin of the same denomination illustrates that while the US mint is still bound by the mint act when it coins silver dollars, it empowers the federal reserve to debase the currency with debt currency that would plummet in value if the government made them call it something else.

Last year I was working on a proposal for a Debit Union, which would be the libertarian equivalent of a credit union.
Quote
Thanks for setting me straight on this. I always appriciate when someone who has done their homework takes the time to share their wisdom rather than just complain about how stupid everybody else is. That said, I feel that posting a dollar value on x amount of bullion is still a mistake, and that any certificate issued should only be expressed in x amount of bullion that it can be traded for. This way nothing is lost to fluctuation in the value of bullion vs. Federal Reserve Notes.   
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Re: Liberty Dollar Bank or CU
« Reply #37 on: May 14, 2006, 09:46:33 pm »

I see your points about not wanting to tack value to a fiat currency, but there are two major reasons why this has to be done, IMHO:

1. PR- Like it or not, 99.99% of Americans don't know anything else besides FRNs. This is self explanitory/evident.
2. Scaling- Because of #1, 99.999% of transactions are in FRNs. Doing it in metals only is going to severely limit viability.
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Mike Lorrey

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Re: Liberty Dollar Bank or CU
« Reply #38 on: May 14, 2006, 10:20:38 pm »

I see your points about not wanting to tack value to a fiat currency, but there are two major reasons why this has to be done, IMHO:

1. PR- Like it or not, 99.99% of Americans don't know anything else besides FRNs. This is self explanitory/evident.
2. Scaling- Because of #1, 99.999% of transactions are in FRNs. Doing it in metals only is going to severely limit viability.

Eh, this is questionable logic. 100% of Americans have access to newspapers that publish the spot value of gold and silver on a frequent basis, which can serve as an indicator of a minimum exchange rate (based purely on intrinsic value), and most people have access to the internet by which they can find an exact market exchange rate if a coiner were to set one up with a web page that could be accessed by cellphones as well as PCs. If coin distributors were to set up ATM networks that were capable of exchanging hard money for FRNs as well as regular ATM transactions, this would serve as a local exchange that people could bank on.

One problem that someone like Von Nothaus has is the face value to intrinsic value differential. The US government, when they were in the silver coin business, bought silver at $0.895/oz troy, which comes out to significantly less than $1:371 grains. If more people dealt with metal money, (or read their history books) they'd understand this, but present confusion is merely a lack of experience/education. Some gold and silver mines sell their metal at below spot market prices on fixed delivery contracts, and refined metal is worth intrinsically less than assayed metal, so when you get some coin dealers who claim they'll only offer the spot value of the silver content of an ALD, they are full of it, especially when ALDs on the collectible market go for significantly more than their face value. A coin is better than an assayed ingot of bullion, partly because ingots are typically much larger, and partly because ingots are hardly ever exactly the same mass as any other ingot. It is the reliably exact mass of a coin that established its credibility in the market, and why valuable coins (particularly undervalued coins) generally are milled on the edges, to easily indicate what is called "clipping", where people clip metal off the edge of a number of coins so that the clippings can be made into new coins, thus "creating" money. This is a form of debasement.

Actually, most monetary transactions are not in FRNs, either. Not in printed FRNs, anyways. Printed cash in circulation is only a fraction of the M1 money supply, which is less than a trillion dollars. The M3 money supply is somewhere over 9 trillion, and is primarily only existent as data on people's accounts and debts. For this reason, economists are correct when they say a dollar is really "just a standard, not a thing", just as a meter is a standard of how far light travels in a given amount of time in a vacuum. Without a silver or gold standard, the measure of a dollar is entirely relative to the size of the supply and the velocity of the dollars of that supply in the greater economy. While scientifically, this is sound, politically it isn't, because the average person has no basis upon which to trust what the government tells him a dollar is worth, especially when the market exposes the governments claims as a lie.
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Re: Liberty Dollar Bank or CU
« Reply #39 on: May 16, 2006, 10:51:43 pm »

OK, so what do you want to do about this? God knows this process will be a long and painful one, so we should probably get started with actual work on this issue ASAP.
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Mike Lorrey

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Re: Liberty Dollar Bank or CU
« Reply #40 on: May 23, 2006, 02:52:55 pm »

OK, so what do you want to do about this? God knows this process will be a long and painful one, so we should probably get started with actual work on this issue ASAP.

Well, like most states, it is legal for non-banks to own and operate ATM machines, so long as they are registered with the state. I've proposed elsewhere that we develop an ATM machine that people can use to access their normal bank accounts, but receive their cash in ALDs or other alternative NH currencies, as well as allow the redemption of those currencies for FRNs or bank deposits. With such a machine, we'd effectively have a functional bank dealing in alternative currency operating within the normal banking system. The alternative currency would be treated as "tokens", as if they were handing out highway toll tokens.

Having this easy convertibility and redeemability would be a huge step. While starting with ALDs would be nice, I'd prefer that it shift to a currency that issued merely a weighted face value, not a dollar face value. Bernard's concerns about keeping the system funded here don't justify having a face value other than the weighted value, because a properly run system will earn its keep on the exchange rate differential and other transaction costs. The ATM should therefore, at all times, display current exchange rates of dollars to and from the alternative currency. The mint gets its quoinage fee upon issuance, but after that one earns ones profit as a money changer on the exchange rate differential.

Secondly, a publicity campaign, reeducating people as to the nature of real money, especially with pamphlets issued with every exchange for ALDs at these ATMs.
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Re: Liberty Dollar Bank or CU
« Reply #41 on: May 23, 2006, 08:02:53 pm »

Sounds like a potential avenue. This should perhaps be done first in promenent areas while the brick-and-mortar revenue is being generated. Would this be franchised out or whatever or would that incur too much overhead?

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Mike Lorrey

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Re: Liberty Dollar Bank or CU
« Reply #42 on: June 01, 2006, 02:49:03 pm »

Sounds like a potential avenue. This should perhaps be done first in promenent areas while the brick-and-mortar revenue is being generated. Would this be franchised out or whatever or would that incur too much overhead?



Ownership and operating of the ATMs would be franchisable. That is how it currently works already.
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jumonjii

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Re: Liberty Dollar Bank or CU
« Reply #43 on: July 19, 2006, 02:50:18 am »

Hello!

I just registered here. I found this forum while researching the American Liberty Dollar.

Okay...here I go...sorry everyone, I've been thinking on this for a few weeks now..

The concept of a bank is a great idea, however my personal view on it skewed since I have issues with banks in general and would NEVER let them hold silver coins. You'd never get them back unless you put them in a safety deposit box. They can keep their FRNs and do as they please with them.

The issue I have run into with retailers regarding the ALD is that they can't deposit them.

They like the idea of an alternative currency but like most people they feel it is a novelty type thing.

The mindset is established that, although they are willing to exchange them back and forth, they cannot sustain their business or their family without FRNs.

I understand what they mean and can relate to their apprehension toward using them complely, preferrably, or more often.

The ALD works fine in tandem with the FRN for consumer use. Currently a business can still run fine because their ratio of ALDs versus FRNs is low.

Basically they have enough "money" coming in to sustain the business (bills, paychecks, vendor invoices, etc) while still exchanging ALDS with customers who use them.

As for the deposit issue. I can see their point as well. A retailer or merchant would rather deposit the ALD's or exchange them for FRNs that they can deposit, rather than carry them home or leave them in their business.

FRNs are "money" to them still.

The Banking Industry is corrupt. If somewhere were to create a bank that supported both FRNs and ALD's, it wouldn't surprise me if the banks took full control of them...creating loans, and charging interest as well.

The whole idea behind the American Liberty Dollar was to offer a private currency seperate from Government corruption.

A Liberty Dollar Bank would have to hold true to the same concept.

A Liberty Dollar "Holdings" Center would be more ideal than a bank IMO.

A merchant or retailer could deposit their ALD's in this center as well as withdraw ALD's from their account.

It would work like a bank, but there would be no checks, debit cards, or atms. These things are just more ways the banks have devised to keep us in debt.

The holding center would not offer loans or credits. It just holds ALD's and exchanges FRNs for ALDs. The merchant would have different options available to them.

1. Exchange the ALD silver rounds for silver certificates to carry home.
2. Deposit ALD silver rounds into a personal account using a deposit slip.
3. Exchange ALD silver rounds or silver certificates for FRN.
4. Exchange FRNs for ALD silver rounds or silver certificates.

The holding center would maintain a 1-to-1 ratio of FRNS to ALDs on deposit daily....if not double the amount.


If the ALD's were more widely circulated in my area....as well as exchanged, I wouldn't mind getting paid with a either a 25 or 30 percent ratio of ALDs to FRNs.

As long as I can buy food and clothes and still pay my bills, I'd have no problems.


Thanks for reading.
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Minsk

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Re: Liberty Dollar Bank or CU
« Reply #44 on: July 19, 2006, 07:50:39 am »

...
It would work like a bank, but there would be no checks, debit cards, or atms. These things are just more ways the banks have devised to keep us in debt.
...

I just want to pick at that for a second, because it makes no sense to me. One can argue that credit cards encourage unrestrained spending and debt, but checks/debit/atms? (Building unforgeable and untraceable debit cards is actually fairly easy, so with a little work they could be as safe as cash)

Creating the "bank" as an eschrow company rather than a credit union might avoid some regulations, but my impression is that credit unions are pretty brain-dead simple already. <edit>And looking at that again, an eschrow would again be distinct from a straight holding co, though what the rules are for holding money...</edit>
« Last Edit: July 19, 2006, 11:27:01 am by Minsk »
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