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Author Topic: Recovering Welfareholic  (Read 18278 times)

lasse

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Re: Recovering Welfareholic
« Reply #45 on: June 08, 2006, 07:11:46 am »

It's true that it doesn't help the tax issue to refuse welfare, but it certainly won't help if you do. It's a bit like the argument of software pirates - 'it doesn't cost anything to make bits and bytes, and so it won't matter if i take it'. True enough, but it's a matter of principle. However contentious immaterial rights may be, someone did make that music. And someone, somewhere did earn the money the buccaneers calling themselves the Government are attempting to stuff up your arse. Are you principled?
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Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil - Isaiah 5:20

Icarus

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Re: Recovering Welfareholic
« Reply #46 on: June 08, 2006, 09:20:22 am »

It's true that it doesn't help the tax issue to refuse welfare, but it certainly won't help if you do. It's a bit like the argument of software pirates - 'it doesn't cost anything to make bits and bytes, and so it won't matter if i take it'. True enough, but it's a matter of principle. However contentious immaterial rights may be, someone did make that music. And someone, somewhere did earn the money the buccaneers calling themselves the Government are attempting to stuff up your arse. Are you principled?

Piracy is wrong on principle because it fails the "What if everyone did it?" test. If everyone did it, software and music quality and quantity would drop and creators of music and software would go out of business, having no incentive to create and innovate. Accepting welfare, on the other hand, passes this test. Currently, just about everyone takes welfare when they can. But there is little reason to think things would change for the better if everyone refused welfare.

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Even if everyone refused to accept welfare from the government, the government would have no less incentive to tax because politicians have an unlimited desire to spend money, to exercise power.
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Are you principled?

Yes.
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It's true that it doesn't help the tax issue to refuse welfare.

Then why not take it?  Taking it violates no one's rights, hurts no one, and is helpful to me. Sure, the taxation that funds it is wrong. Fight the taxation, but why shouldn't you take the money if it's given to you?
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I heartily accept the motto, "That government is best which governs least." --Henry David Thoreau

Dreepa

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Re: Recovering Welfareholic
« Reply #47 on: June 08, 2006, 10:10:19 am »

The good news is that it is getting harder to get welfare.

If you move to NH and receive welfare I hope you remember the pledge of the FSP.

Taking welfare is not helping the government get smaller.
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Icarus

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Re: Recovering Welfareholic
« Reply #48 on: June 08, 2006, 10:21:03 am »

Neither is eating lunch, but neither make government bigger either. In fact, taking welfare could help the government get smaller.

More welfare takers=more money spent on welfare=more strain on the government=more imminent government breakdown.

Also, more libertarian welfare takers=more libertarian dollars spent in defense of liberty=smaller government.

That doesn't mean, of course, that FSP participants should limit their actions to overloading the welfare state.
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I heartily accept the motto, "That government is best which governs least." --Henry David Thoreau

lasse

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Re: Recovering Welfareholic
« Reply #49 on: June 08, 2006, 10:54:11 am »

Neither is eating lunch, but neither make government bigger either. In fact, taking welfare could help the government get smaller.

More welfare takers=more money spent on welfare=more strain on the government=more imminent government breakdown.

Also, more libertarian welfare takers=more libertarian dollars spent in defense of liberty=smaller government.

That doesn't mean, of course, that FSP participants should limit their actions to overloading the welfare state.
So the aim is not to promote libertarian views and push on libertarian issues, but to use unethical methods to 'break down' the government? Might as well start by bombing your city hall.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda_of_the_deed
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Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil - Isaiah 5:20

Icarus

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Re: Recovering Welfareholic
« Reply #50 on: June 08, 2006, 11:06:04 am »

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unethical methods
When did I suggest using unethical methods? How is accepting welfare, which I did suggest, comparable with bombing city hall (V for Vendetta!!! ;D). I never advocated violence. Why the link to an article on propaganda of the deed? Would the breakdown of the welfare state be a bad thing?

 ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
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I heartily accept the motto, "That government is best which governs least." --Henry David Thoreau

lasse

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Re: Recovering Welfareholic
« Reply #51 on: June 08, 2006, 01:28:12 pm »

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unethical methods
When did I suggest using unethical methods? How is accepting welfare, which I did suggest, comparable with bombing city hall (V for Vendetta!!! ;D). I never advocated violence. Why the link to an article on propaganda of the deed? Would the breakdown of the welfare state be a bad thing?

 ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???
You didn't say 'breakdown of the welfare system', you said 'breakdown of the government'.
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Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil - Isaiah 5:20

Denis Goddard

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Re: Recovering Welfareholic
« Reply #52 on: June 08, 2006, 01:45:06 pm »

If you move to NH...

If I Recall Correctly, NH has no State unemployment benefits.
So, keep that in mind before moving ;)

RobRolen

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Re: Recovering Welfareholic
« Reply #53 on: June 08, 2006, 03:17:19 pm »

Long live the FSP socialism leeches!  Here's to hoping that their scheming won't be required for much longer.

Salutations,
R. Rolen

I think this guy actually believes what he is saying. 

Behold the bottom of the slippery slope.

If by the bottom of the slippery slope you mean a rational full expression of a logical strategy, then I agree.  If on the other hand you meant some slight against the arguments I've presented, please state them openly on this forum instead of cowardly hiding behind imaginary objections.  And no, I don't "believe" what I am saying, I merely think that it is a blatantly obvious rational utilitarian deduction from the facts associated with the disgusting, wasteful, irrational welfare/warfare system we are all currently embedded in.  If you want to call it theft (which I reject on obvious grounds) or being an accomplice/indirect-supporter to theft (which I reject on more subtle grounds as expressed relatively well by others here) that's fine.  I still think it is justified on obvious utilitarian grounds, especially when calculated under the typical valuation systems of those posting here. 

Regards,
R. Rolen
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RobRolen

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Re: Recovering Welfareholic
« Reply #54 on: June 08, 2006, 03:22:08 pm »

Wow and I thought I was a mild one.....

Leech = thief.

Royerson you are right.

To the rest of you... Move to NH.

If you plan on leeching(welfare etc) off the system I will make sure that  everyone knows so don't tell me.

Tell who you wish.  Let them judge who is contributing more to their final liberation, the leeches/thiefs or the "principled" lay-abouts who can't find the time to do anything because their honest respectable jobs consume the vast majority of their time and effort.  If they can't appreciate the obvious, then I have no reason to respect their judgment anyway. 

Regards,
R. Rolen 
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RobRolen

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Re: Recovering Welfareholic
« Reply #55 on: June 08, 2006, 03:42:05 pm »



Piracy is wrong on principle because it fails the "What if everyone did it?" test.

What a ridiculous test.  When does everyone do anything?  Do you enjoy ignoring reality?  The reason piracy is "wrong on principle" is because people believe in a principle called "justice" which demands that you proportionaltely compensate the person responsible for the value you have received in exactly the same manner as you would wish to be compensated by a person responsible for causing you harm, and in proportion to the damage you perceive to have been done.  From a utilitarian angle, this also allows the free market to respond with extreme accuracy to all demands (should a sufficient percentage act similarly). 

Why do people believe in "justice" and how does each person define it?  That's a little harder to explain. 

Regards,
R. Rolen
   
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Dreepa

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Re: Recovering Welfareholic
« Reply #56 on: June 08, 2006, 03:46:33 pm »

Using those arguments then everyone who can't move because they don't have a job should move here and go on welfare.


Aye Carumba.

Come to NH and be a welfare queen!  -- New motto of the FSP? :'(
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RobRolen

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Re: Recovering Welfareholic
« Reply #57 on: June 08, 2006, 03:53:57 pm »

Using those arguments then everyone who can't move because they don't have a job should move here and go on welfare.


Aye Carumba.

Come to NH and be a welfare queen! -- New motto of the FSP? :'(

And what would be wrong with that?  Reasons please!!!!  What objection would you have to an army of freedom activists flooding into NH?  So what if they happen to be temporary welfare queens?  I'm not talking about staying on the dole forever, just as long as the calculus justifies it.  Did you not understand anything I've said?   
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Dreepa

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Re: Recovering Welfareholic
« Reply #58 on: June 08, 2006, 04:10:22 pm »

So are you are saying the ends justifies the means?

It is ok for 10 people to move in and receive welfare (thereby raising my taxes) as long as they work for 'liberty'?  Is that what you think is ok?
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RobRolen

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Re: Recovering Welfareholic
« Reply #59 on: June 08, 2006, 05:14:47 pm »

So are you are saying the ends justifies the means?

It is ok for 10 people to move in and receive welfare (thereby raising my taxes) as long as they work for 'liberty'? Is that what you think is ok?

Given a few other conditions that you seem to have either ignored or missed, yes.  You don't think the ends justify the means in the case I presented?  Reasons please?  ...or are you only capable of emotional outbursts devoid of rational thought?

And by the way, why are you still paying your taxes and thereby not only funding the government but lessening the burden on others who might otherwise be inspired/enraged into action/refussal, precipitating a cycle of refusal that might have significant positive overall effects (not to mention all the pro-freedom things you could use that money for)?  Do your ends in your case justify your means?  That's an honest question since I have no knowledge of your circumstances.     

Regards,
R. Rolen 
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