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Author Topic: Recovering Welfareholic  (Read 18279 times)

Roycerson

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Re: Recovering Welfareholic
« Reply #30 on: June 06, 2006, 03:20:39 pm »

I can't be believe I'm reading this.  I am less proud to be a part of the FSP than I was yesterday.

I would have no problem taking a large government grant for my research, even though I would have a problem with going on welfare or unemployment insurance. Hypocritical? Maybe. But I agree with the arguments above that the money is going to be used, so it might as well be used for a good cause.

What if instead of cash it was a car that was taken from someone and given to you.  Would you feel alright about driving that car so long as you drove it to pro-liberty lectures?  Would you give it back to the person it was taken from?

And that bit about the money is going to be spent anyway is pretty thin.  If nobody cashed their welfare checks this year would taxes go up next year?  Why don't we all encourage our kids to accept government scholarships to study political science, so long as they use that education to be better advocates of freedom.  You know what, they're gonna need to eat while they're fighting for freedom.  If they get food stamps then Uncle Sam will pay for the calories they burn while carrying pro-liberty signs.  But where are they going to live?  I know, section 8 housing. 

We can have whole armies of liberty activists feeding themselves with food stamps and living in tax-payer funded housing.  Boy we could really make a difference then!
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RobRolen

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Re: Recovering Welfareholic
« Reply #31 on: June 06, 2006, 04:50:21 pm »

What if instead of cash it was a car that was taken from someone and given to you. Would you feel alright about driving that car so long as you drove it to pro-liberty lectures? Would you give it back to the person it was taken from?

We're not talking about driving someone elses car to some worthless lecture that has little or no chance of restoring freedom.  We're are talking about driving a car that is already yours by virtue of the fact that the government has given it to you.  The same government that has stolen from, will continue to steal from you and your children, and will harm you in inumerable other irreparable ways.  Yes the government does not own that car, but neither does the person the government stole it from.  More often than not, the person it was stolen from gave it up willingly, did not fight to prevent it from falling into the hands of an entity that they knew was going to use it for harm.  In my opinion, if it were my car that I allowed the government to steal, I would be almost complicit in the governments conduct by allowing them to take it from me.  I will go so far as to say that I have no right to a return of the money that I have to some extent or another allowed them to steal from me, in fact, I might even venture to say that I deserve to never see it returned since I did so little to prevent it's theft and subsequent misuse towards the destruction of others freedoms.  And I especially have no right to the return of the car if the person now in possession of it intends to use it in a manner that will most effectively stymy the very system that provided him/her that car.  In fact, I will cheer that person on most heartily and praise him for retrieving that stolen item from government and using it to effectively bring about its demise.   

And that bit about the money is going to be spent anyway is pretty thin. If nobody cashed their welfare checks this year would taxes go up next year?

Yes, they might not go up, but how in the world is that remotely relevant.  The only thing I and other liberty loving individuals have control over is whether or not I (as a member of a fairly miniscule minority) will choose to cash that welfare check (which would allow me and whoever to devote ourselve to fare greater effective activism than would be possible with any other real job).  If we don't cash it, maybe just maybe their might be some miniscule reduction in the amount of government theft over the near future, but we will have sacrificed a huge advance in freedom and a huge decrease in government theft for it (especially if you put any stock in the potential of the FSP).  Under such conditions, where the burden is borne more or less evenly across the country, it would be a horrible miscalculation to not cash the check or let someone of less awareness/character fill the make-work position.   

You should be proud of your fellow FSP members who are clear headed enough to see this.

Why don't we all encourage our kids to accept government scholarships to study political science, so long as they use that education to be better advocates of freedom.

Assuming such an education wouldn't be a ridiculous waste of time and money, yes we should encourage them to do so if there is real hope of it promoting more freedom through the FSP than it destroys.   

You know what, they're gonna need to eat while they're fighting for freedom. If they get food stamps then Uncle Sam will pay for the calories they burn while carrying pro-liberty signs.

Excellent idea!  That cost is borne fairly evenly across the country and to a large extent is being borrowed from people across the globe who are trusting (amd complicit) enough to think that our government will still have a sufficient stranglehold on it's citizens to extract enough funds to repay the bloated debt that they are currently hoping to unload in the future on the next unsuspecting generation.  Those people deserve to have their investments in our government fail, and those activists should be proud of the fact that they are saving the money on that food and using it to fund the FSP. 

But where are they going to live? I know, section 8 housing.

Another excellent idea!  Save that money and use it to do something that has a real chance of destroying such programs altogether like the FSP, especially if it is a place outside of NH. 


We can have whole armies of liberty activists feeding themselves with food stamps and living in tax-payer funded housing. Boy we could really make a difference then!

Yes they could!  I don't know big this army you speak of is going to be, but 20,000 would suit me just fine.  You should run with that idea. 

Let's be honest here.  All these previous objections were just smoke screens for the real objection, the only objection that really counts: 

Are you sure you can keep from becoming corrupted by the abomination you're feeding off of, the system you profess to abhor?

If the answer is no, then don't even think about attempting it.  Nothing could be worse than losing an advocate for freedom AND gaining another worthless leech.

If the answer is yes, may the wind be at your back and may you have incalculable success plundering the government stores of their ill gotten gains.  Please do your best to leave only a trail of evidence that points back to them and their system. 

Long live the FSP socialism leeches!  Here's to hoping that their scheming won't be required for much longer.

Salutations,
R. Rolen

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JasonPSorens

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Re: Recovering Welfareholic
« Reply #32 on: June 06, 2006, 05:56:42 pm »

I can't be believe I'm reading this.  I am less proud to be a part of the FSP than I was yesterday.

I would have no problem taking a large government grant for my research, even though I would have a problem with going on welfare or unemployment insurance. Hypocritical? Maybe. But I agree with the arguments above that the money is going to be used, so it might as well be used for a good cause.

What if instead of cash it was a car that was taken from someone and given to you.  Would you feel alright about driving that car so long as you drove it to pro-liberty lectures?  Would you give it back to the person it was taken from?

I would give it back to the person it was taken from, if possible (i.e., the government wouldn't just take it right back). But I think taxes are probably different, b/c it's very difficult to identify whom exactly that money was taken from. If it were, I would give it back to the taxpayers. But if I tried to do that with a grant, I might be prosecuted for fraud.

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And that bit about the money is going to be spent anyway is pretty thin.  If nobody cashed their welfare checks this year would taxes go up next year?

Probably.  :-\

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Why don't we all encourage our kids to accept government scholarships to study political science, so long as they use that education to be better advocates of freedom.  You know what, they're gonna need to eat while they're fighting for freedom.  If they get food stamps then Uncle Sam will pay for the calories they burn while carrying pro-liberty signs.  But where are they going to live?  I know, section 8 housing.

I don't believe in being a net leech. For that reason, I wouldn't take subsidies for personal expenses, certainly not in excess of the taxes I pay. But taking a government grant for research doesn't go to pay my personal expenses; it just directs some of what would otherwise be spent promoting socialism to promoting free markets.
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Denis Goddard

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Re: Recovering Welfareholic
« Reply #33 on: June 06, 2006, 06:54:10 pm »

I can't be believe I'm reading this.  I am less proud to be a part of the FSP than I was yesterday.

Two points:
a) the FSP is the people in it, not any one person. Especially not Jason :P
b) theorizing on internet message boards is... well, I think Buckminster Fuller put it best: "irrelevant to the propagation of life"

Come to NH, at least for PorcFest, and see what the FSP is really about -- getting the government out of everyone's life. REALLY. NOW.
No bull-shitting, no idle talk!

Icarus

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Re: Recovering Welfareholic
« Reply #34 on: June 06, 2006, 10:33:03 pm »

Quote
What if instead of cash it was a car that was taken from someone and given to you.  Would you feel alright about driving that car so long as you drove it to pro-liberty lectures?  Would you give it back to the person it was taken from?

What if it was a car that was taken from you and later returned to you? Would you take it back or refuse it? You would obviously take it. I don't think there is any question that leeching benefits not exceeding taxes paid is OK. Net leeching's merits are less clear.
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Roycerson

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Re: Recovering Welfareholic
« Reply #35 on: June 07, 2006, 01:39:41 am »

Quote
What if instead of cash it was a car that was taken from someone and given to you.  Would you feel alright about driving that car so long as you drove it to pro-liberty lectures?  Would you give it back to the person it was taken from?

What if it was a car that was taken from you and later returned to you? Would you take it back or refuse it? You would obviously take it. I don't think there is any question that leeching benefits not exceeding taxes paid is OK. Net leeching's merits are less clear.


I understand people who don't mind taking up to as much as they have put in.  Jason said "large government grant".  There is no telling exactly what he meant by that.

I don't believe in taking any of it regardless of how much I put in for the same reason I don't buy powertools at pawn shops anymore.  I'm in construction and I've had 10's of thousands of dollars worth of tools stolen from me over the years.  It would be real easy for me to buy someone else's stolen tools from a pawn shop and justify it because I'm just recouping what was stolen from me.  Meanwhile some guy across town is buying my stolen tools.  Every tool that leaves the shelves creates that much more demand for continued influx of stolen tools.  Every dollar accepted from the federal government creates that much more demand for them to raise more money.


I don't believe in being a net leech. For that reason, I wouldn't take subsidies for personal expenses, certainly not in excess of the taxes I pay. But taking a government grant for research doesn't go to pay my personal expenses; it just directs some of what would otherwise be spent promoting socialism to promoting free markets.

You don't know where that money would have gone.

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Roycerson

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Re: Recovering Welfareholic
« Reply #36 on: June 07, 2006, 01:43:07 am »

Long live the FSP socialism leeches!  Here's to hoping that their scheming won't be required for much longer.

Salutations,
R. Rolen

I think this guy actually believes what he is saying. 

Behold the bottom of the slippery slope.
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Dreepa

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Re: Recovering Welfareholic
« Reply #37 on: June 07, 2006, 08:20:46 am »

Wow and I thought I was a mild one.....

Leech = thief.

Royerson you are right.

To the rest of you... Move to NH.

If you plan on leeching(welfare etc) off the system I will make sure that  everyone knows so don't tell me.
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JasonPSorens

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Re: Recovering Welfareholic
« Reply #38 on: June 07, 2006, 08:44:47 am »

I don't believe in being a net leech. For that reason, I wouldn't take subsidies for personal expenses, certainly not in excess of the taxes I pay. But taking a government grant for research doesn't go to pay my personal expenses; it just directs some of what would otherwise be spent promoting socialism to promoting free markets.

You don't know where that money would have gone.

With the major federal grant programs, you usually have a pretty good idea. Some of the grants might also go to fund worthwhile research, but a lot of it, even NSF grants, funds ideologically driven work.
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Icarus

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Re: Recovering Welfareholic
« Reply #39 on: June 08, 2006, 12:14:43 am »

Quote
I don't believe in taking any of it regardless of how much I put in for the same reason I don't buy powertools at pawn shops anymore.  I'm in construction and I've had 10's of thousands of dollars worth of tools stolen from me over the years.  It would be real easy for me to buy someone else's stolen tools from a pawn shop and justify it because I'm just recouping what was stolen from me.  Meanwhile some guy across town is buying my stolen tools.  Every tool that leaves the shelves creates that much more demand for continued influx of stolen tools.  Every dollar accepted from the federal government creates that much more demand for them to raise more money.

If people stop buying stolen tools, the value of stolen tools will drop, and thieves will have less incentive to steal them. If people do not take government welfare, the government will have more money to spend on other programs, it will not have a disincentive to tax.

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Every dollar accepted from the federal government creates that much more demand for them to raise more money.
There is an unlimited demand for money, and most people don't care where it comes from, and rightly so. So the refusal of a handful of people to take welfare would make no difference in the demand for welfare.  Even if everyone refused to accept welfare from the government, the government would have no less incentive to tax because politicians have an unlimited desire to spend money, to exercise power. Their only disincentive to spend is political fallout, which is not created by welfare programs that are closer to being within budget because some people won't take the money. It is created by angry taxpayers. It is OK to take welfare, but

1. don't become dependent
2. stay angry at government spending and taxation

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If you plan on leeching(welfare etc) off the system I will make sure that  everyone knows so don't tell me.

There is no shame in selfish, rational behavior.
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lasse

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Re: Recovering Welfareholic
« Reply #40 on: June 08, 2006, 12:57:31 am »

There is no shame in selfish, rational behavior.
There is shame in theft.
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Rocketman

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Re: Recovering Welfareholic
« Reply #41 on: June 08, 2006, 01:40:42 am »

To be clear, my condition in the original scenario was that all socialist handouts received be donated to anti-government causes, not spent on donuts, beer, and pot... certainly not for an army of so-called liberty activists living in government housing!  The people of New Hampshire would rightly be annoyed by that sort of thing.

Jason's rationale for being willing to accept a research grant makes total sense.  Under the current system, government grants are intended to fund worthwhile research -- which should theoretically include a few non-statist researchers?  The unfortunate reality is that grants are typically offered only when a government agency expects to like a study's results.   ::)
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Icarus

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Re: Recovering Welfareholic
« Reply #42 on: June 08, 2006, 05:45:20 am »

There is no shame in selfish, rational behavior.
There is shame in theft.

And accepting a check written out to you is theft how?
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lasse

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Re: Recovering Welfareholic
« Reply #43 on: June 08, 2006, 05:48:14 am »

There is no shame in selfish, rational behavior.
There is shame in theft.

And accepting a check written out to you is theft how?
Not directly. I'd consider it fencing or whitewashing of the government's plunder instead.
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Icarus

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Re: Recovering Welfareholic
« Reply #44 on: June 08, 2006, 06:55:04 am »

There is no shame in selfish, rational behavior.
There is shame in theft.

And accepting a check written out to you is theft how?
Not directly. I'd consider it fencing or whitewashing of the government's plunder instead.

I can agree with that. But I don't know that there is anything wrong with it, considering the impossibility of returning the property to the rightful owners. Fencing is wrong because it abets theft. Taking welfare does not abet taxation.

Things that do abet taxation:

Voting for politicians who favor tax/spending increases
Filing income tax returns
Paying employees' payroll taxes

Many libertarians do some of these things without giving it a second thought, but wouldn't dream of seeking or accepting government welfare. This is absurd. Taxpayer cooperation and voter acceptance allow taxation to occur, not welfare recipients. Welfare recipients may be more likely to support taxation, but they don't have to support taxation just because it benefits them in the short term. Voting for politicians who support tax/spending increases is tantamount to theft. Cooperating with taxation by filing returns, whithholding payroll taxes, and the like makes the government's theft easier. Accepting government welfare copensates you for the gigantic pain in the butt government is, albeit unjustly, and does not influence taxation one iota so long as you maintain your stance on government spending and taxation. Someone might refuse welfare in defiance and as a statement of disgust at the obscene practice of socialism, but I don't believe doing otherwise is morally reprehensible.
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