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Author Topic: Recovering Welfareholic  (Read 18274 times)

Tracy Saboe

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Re: Recovering Welfareholic
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2006, 05:07:58 am »

I congradulate you on getting off the dole (or striving too.) I know all too well how difficult it is to get off once your on.

Sign the pledge. Come to new Hampshire.

Just expect welfare to not be around much more, and as logn as you work to abolish it, I don't see a problem.

You could even be a testiment to how the "free" money was making you lazy and crushing your spirit. And work to get other people off the dole and build opposition to it.

We've all become entangled at one point or another. I have an FHA loan for my house because I applied for it before I realized what it was when we bought our house, (Allong w/ a MAPP loan from the State to help pay for the down payment) and I used to have a Government subsidized Staford loan. We all realize the errors of our ways at different points in time.

The point is, what you do, now that you've realized the errors of your ways. I would advise getting on your feet somehow even if the good old boys network doesn't go away. (It'll be their for a while. The welfare system needs to go away so their's less power for the good old boys to control to begin with.)

Tracy
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Icarus

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Re: Recovering Welfareholic
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2006, 11:14:39 pm »

Certainly, involvement with the Free State Project does not require that one reject government welfare, but the questions of when and why welfare should be rejected are ones I have considered but not answered sufficiently.

After reading Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged before my last year of high school, I decided to leave the public school system and home school myself.  Rand makes the argument in that book that accepting welfare implies sanctioning welfare and the taxation that supports it, yet as every man, woman, and child suffers from taxes and unjust regulation, the argument can be made that accepting welfare is no more wrong than accepting a tax decrease.  We could say welfare is acceptable so long as it does not exceed taxes paid and costs incurred by regulation, yet that would be impossible to calculate accurately, and it is unclear why accepting welfare would be wrong even when it exceeds taxes paid and costs incurred by regulation.  The beneficiary has not taxed anyone or necessarily even asked that anyone be taxed.  Declining welfare could be a way for one to prove that he/she is not voting for increased welfare selfishly, which could be a solution for someone who would not otherwise vote, but I don't know that such concern for the opinions of others is warranted. 

The most important thing is to vote for pro-liberty candidates/policies and/or engage in pro-liberty activism. If thou are working to end welfare yet receive a SS check monthly, it is hard to argue that thou are really pro-welfare, and if someone nevertheless argues that, so what? I made the decision to quit public school, but now I am looking at attending college, and financially, private schools are out of the question, which leaves public colleges. I and my parents pay taxes, which help pay for the public colleges in my state, and my tuition pays for the college I attend, as well.  Is it the same as public high school? To complicate things, I received a merit scholarship to attend a local public university. Would attending on a merit scholarship be distinguishable from attending while paying full tuition?

Now asking myself these questions, I realize I never fully understood why I shouldn't take welfare. Taking tax funded perks seems awkward if not downright immoral to me, an Objectivist(?) libertarian, on an intuitive level, yet I cannot answer why.

Any suggestions?
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Rocketman

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Re: Recovering Welfareholic
« Reply #17 on: May 29, 2006, 01:10:48 am »

I woudn't be likely to accept government "handouts" for myself, but I wouldn't blame somebody else for doing so under adverse circumstances... hey, as long as you don't move to New Hampshire and become a leech here!
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Denis Goddard

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Re: Recovering Welfareholic
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2006, 03:57:37 pm »

Taking tax funded perks seems awkward if not downright immoral to me, an Objectivist(?) libertarian, on an intuitive level, yet I cannot answer why.
Any suggestions?

This is one of those issues that Libertarians will be arguing both sides of, until long after we've all passed away ;)

Personally, I figure that if you're agitating for freedom and for the reduction of all taxes, then taking some State tax credit or other handout is effectively using the State's money against it. That's rather poetic in a way. I'm reminded of that quote from the great 80's movie Real Genius, where Laslo is explaining why he's sending tens of thousands of applications to a sweepstakes:
"They made the rules!"

Dreepa

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Re: Recovering Welfareholic
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2006, 08:35:10 am »


Personally, I figure that if you're agitating for freedom and for the reduction of all taxes, then taking some State tax credit or other handout is effectively using the State's money against it. That's rather poetic in a way.
Except the taxes will never be lower because the taxes need to be collected to pay the welfare. A Dog chasing his tail.
Get off, get a job and then work on reducing taxes.
You have to not be part of the problem before you can be part of the solution.

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Denis Goddard

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Re: Recovering Welfareholic
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2006, 10:12:46 am »

You're either part of the solution,
or you're part of the precipitate :)

Rocketman

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Re: Recovering Welfareholic
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2006, 05:58:44 pm »

I suppose it has occured to me that a person with invisible income could go on welfare and then donate 100% to support liberty activism.  Hmmm.... any takers?
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Denis Goddard

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Re: Recovering Welfareholic
« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2006, 09:29:04 pm »

I suppose it has occured to me that a person with invisible income could go on welfare and then donate 100% to support liberty activism.  Hmmm.... any takers?

I honestly can't explain how exactly that's immoral, but it makes me feel.... icky.

Rocketman

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Re: Recovering Welfareholic
« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2006, 10:17:36 pm »

I suppose it has occured to me that a person with invisible income could go on welfare and then donate 100% to support liberty activism. Hmmm.... any takers?

I honestly can't explain how exactly that's immoral, but it makes me feel.... icky.


Me too, and I can't explain why... I guess it would be sort of hypocritical given how frequently and loudly I complain about them taking my money and using it to disseminate ideas I disagree with (oh, and lies... a lot of lies).

But then again, why does pro-government media dwarf anti-government media in the free-speech-loving land of liberty?  Simple, it's because government has the power to steal from people and use the loot to run statist schools, print and distribute piles of statist bullshit, and bribe citizens (especially nonproducers) with pork so they will remain loyal statists.  And then they say money isn't speech (The Bipartisan Campaign Finance Reform Act, a.k.a. McCain-Feingold).   ::)

Government also has considerable power (again, our tax dollars at work) to restrict speech it doesn't like, because American citizens have failed in their duty to enforce (or even f---ing understand) the Bill of Rights.

On the flip side, any pro-liberty media has to be paid for (and in some cases, purchased by consumers) with what little we have left after taxes, taxes, and more taxes. This makes pro-liberty media much harder to create and harder for consumers to afford.  Hooray for the internet, for as long as we can keep it mostly free.

So there is a very rational argument for doing the welfare scheme.  It would take a few drops of rain out of the pig trough and put them back in the freedom bucket from whence they came.  And yet, I can't get past the ickiness factor... hell, I must be human.   :P
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Icarus

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Re: Recovering Welfareholic
« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2006, 11:30:11 pm »

Quote
Quote
Personally, I figure that if you're agitating for freedom and for the reduction of all taxes, then taking some State tax credit or other handout is effectively using the State's money against it. That's rather poetic in a way.

Except the taxes will never be lower because the taxes need to be collected to pay the welfare. A Dog chasing his tail.
Get off, get a job and then work on reducing taxes.
You have to not be part of the problem before you can be part of the solution.

Maybe. But won't taxes and spending be determined more by the tolerance of taxpayers and shrewdness of politicians than by the number of takers of handouts.
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Mice Elf

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Re: Recovering Welfareholic
« Reply #25 on: June 05, 2006, 06:57:07 pm »

Who better to "take" from the system then someone fighting to abolish the system it takes from? Will the refusal to take the money improve the system? Will the funds not used reduce the amount of funds needed, and therefore not taken from all of us? I think not!
Is it hypocritical? Perhaps, but I'd rather the ill gotten gains go to pro-liberty peoples. So long as the participant accepts the dissolution of the system they use then I don't see the problem. Using the resources of a system to fight the system is poetic. Much like the Free State Project itself.
Just trying to be:
Mice Elf
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RobRolen

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Re: Recovering Welfareholic
« Reply #26 on: June 05, 2006, 08:20:58 pm »

I would like to add my two sense to all the rational individuals here who have been able to look at this situation rationally. 

I'm personally employed by the federal government.  My activism is being funded by your stolen taxpayer dollars.  Can you think of a better use for them?  Can you think of anyone you'ld rather have sitting in my bureaucratic cubicle?  The option isn't can we do away with my position or with Social Security, the question is what most advances liberty in the short and longterm now in this particular circumstance. 

That's why I saw leech away!  You're not stealing from me.  Those tax dollars of mine were stolen long before they fell into your hands.  You're stealing from the government now, just as I am.  If you don't accept those stolen funds, they'll just go to someone else and I'ld much rather you put them to good use.   Let your disgust and misplaced guilt fuel your activism.  One caveat, don't leech off of New Hampshire' taxpayers specifically.  New Hampshire's comparative freedom (with respect to the other states) must be preserved at almost all costs in order to enhance the incentives for future freedom loving immigrants to the state and to accentuate the success of liberty in the state.   

Regards,
Rob Rolen
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JasonPSorens

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Re: Recovering Welfareholic
« Reply #27 on: June 05, 2006, 11:22:44 pm »

I would have no problem taking a large government grant for my research, even though I would have a problem with going on welfare or unemployment insurance. Hypocritical? Maybe. But I agree with the arguments above that the money is going to be used, so it might as well be used for a good cause. If the feds wanted to make a large donation to the FSP to get libertarians to move to NH, I probably wouldn't want to stop them. Of course, the problem comes in when you start to make concessions in order to keep the money flowing. You can't let yourself become dependent, and human nature being what it is, that happens all too often. Even Robert Nozick sued his landlord for not abiding by the rent control regulations.  :(
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Icarus

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Re: Recovering Welfareholic
« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2006, 12:42:58 am »

Libertarian Leeching Guidelines

1. Never sell out to the government for your own money. Ex. I won't register w/ the selective service system because I feel doing so would be tantamount to self-enslavement and refusing to do so is a small act of civil disobedience.  Because I am not registered, I cannot get federal student aid. If I registered to get student aid, I would be selling out. The only problem with this rule is that the federal government could tax so much money that people would be forced to conform to the requirements of conditional welfare grants in order to survive. At what point are taxes so excessive that selling out is really just getting by under despotism?

2. Never, ever, ever advocate for pro-leeching policies, e.g. increased welfare funding.

3. Reply to accusations of hypocrisy by pointing out that accepting a gift is not the same as stealing it.
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Denis Goddard

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Re: Recovering Welfareholic
« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2006, 01:52:51 pm »

Using the resources of a system to fight the system is poetic. Much like the Free State Project itself.

Well said, Mice Elf... and welcome to the Board! :D

the problem comes in when you start to make concessions in order to keep the money flowing.

Yep.
That's the "strings-and-crack" financing strategy of our statist do-gooders.
There is so much education to be done....
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