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Author Topic: Seditious Ramblings  (Read 113921 times)

eukreign

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Re: Seditious Ramblings
« Reply #165 on: October 25, 2005, 01:53:31 pm »

How are you going to roll the state back to it's constitutional limits if not via a majority political party after you get off the bus?

By voting, civil disobedience, spreading the word about bad politicians and freedom, running for local government positions, etc.

How are you going to do that when half the people getting off the bus don't believe in the legitimacy of the state at all and the others are minarchists?

Exactly, how are you going to form a large political party if half (or maybe even more) are Anarchists/AnCaps?
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Steve

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Re: Seditious Ramblings
« Reply #166 on: October 25, 2005, 02:17:19 pm »

Quote
Precisely. It used to be "sole role", and then an anarchist (rightly) complained, so we changed it to the elegant "maximum role".  We're in violent agreement.

And this in my opinion is the problem in a nutshell. There has never been a successful project of this kind inwhich the social movement and the political aspirations were not in complete alignment around the most fundamental question - what is the role of the state? You have unknowingly set the project up for the "violent" disagreement that is already starting to play itself out between early mover "anarchists" and the silent majority of "minarchists" who would like to sign on but can't because they don't agree with the early movers strategy. That is why this ultimately may not be sustainable.

TeePee
Being an anarchist myself, with mostly minarchist colleagues, I must disagree.  The LP itself is full of both anarchists and minarchists, as every political party contains a range of subtypes.  When they are polite and reasonable people they can find common ground and work to their mutual benefit.  When people are rude, childish, and obnoxious--whatever their political stripe--they create a lot of heat and noise but very little progress.  The FSP is comprised primarily of minarchists, and the mission statement is geared primarily towards them, with a minor nod to the anarchists so as not to exclude them.

>There has never been a successful project of this kind

When has there *ever* been a successful project of this kind?  We're doing some ground-breaking stuff here.
Look, we're not going to get anywhere if we keep rehashing very old discussions.  If you don't like the mission as it is now, word-smithed over years, I suspect there's not much hope for you.  If people could just be moderately polite and moderately constructive (like focused on achieving tangible goals), this thing would be a cakewalk.  It's like pulling teeth to get anyone here to make one concrete contribution; all anyone wants to share is his opinion. 
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ThomasPaine

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Re: Seditious Ramblings
« Reply #167 on: October 25, 2005, 02:44:59 pm »

Quote
The LP itself is full of both anarchists and minarchists, as every political party contains a range of subtypes.

I rest my case. The original reason for the FSP is the failure of the LP. A big tent only works when you are one of the major parties with the potential for achieving political POWER. To get to be a majority party you have to know where the voters are. Trust me -- there are far more potential minarchists than there are anarchists.

The FSP has moved more self-proclaimed anarchists into NH then have every even existed in the state before.

TeePee
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Dreepa

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Re: Seditious Ramblings
« Reply #168 on: October 25, 2005, 02:46:13 pm »

Quote
The LP itself is full of both anarchists and minarchists, as every political party contains a range of subtypes.

I rest my case. The original reason for the FSP is the failure of the LP. A big tent only works when you are one of the major parties with the potential for achieving political POWER. To get to be a majority party you have to know where the voters are. Trust me -- there are far more potential minarchists than there are anarchists.

The FSP has moved more self-proclaimed anarchists into NH then have every even existed in the state before.

TeePee
TP.. are you a member of the FSP?
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ThomasPaine

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Re: Seditious Ramblings
« Reply #169 on: October 25, 2005, 02:47:06 pm »

Quote
Exactly, how are you going to form a large political party if half (or maybe even more) are Anarchists/AnCaps?

Good question!

TeePee
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Dreepa

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Re: Seditious Ramblings
« Reply #170 on: October 25, 2005, 02:47:59 pm »

As for sparring, I'm only pointing out that way too many of the suggestions aren't new, have been tried, or sound great but have no real substance.  "Get the membership more involved" is a great idea... we all agree on it... HOW?  You come up with a real, fresh previously unconsidered or tested PLAN, and watch how many of the 'leadership' back you up on making it happen.  So much for standing in the way....
Seth... I was trying to be positive.

I will have my plan emailed to FSP by the end of the week.  And I will volunteer to oversee it.
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atr

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Re: Seditious Ramblings
« Reply #171 on: October 25, 2005, 03:03:38 pm »

The core at both of them is a PR Firm.  A PR Firm can make or break an organization of this type.

And we NEED A REALLY GOOD PR Firm to make the FSP succeed.

The FSP recently hired a PR firm, and is exploring other possible firms in case the first does not perform as well as we hope.
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RidleyReport

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Re: Seditious Ramblings
« Reply #172 on: October 25, 2005, 03:11:24 pm »

KB wrote:

<<Gee, what's wrong with, "While the FSP doesn't endorse any particular cause or action, we cheer freedom-loving activists who choose to get involved and make a difference in their communities.">>

Right, and what's wrong with posting links to the front page news coverage that free staters inside NH are generating?

There was a front page article about us in the Concord Monitor last month, why is that not listed on the FSP website?

If the webmaster doesn't have time to do that, no problem.  Just post a permanent link to NHfree.com near the top of the FSP index page.   Russell and Kat will take care of the rest.
 
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RidleyReport

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Re: Seditious Ramblings
« Reply #173 on: October 25, 2005, 03:15:00 pm »

Jason wrote:

<<I might add that reaming your client in public is not a great sign of intelligence.>>

reaming the creator of what may be the FSP's biggest asset in public is just as....well I won't say what you said, but you're wrong on this one Jason. 

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kater

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Re: Seditious Ramblings
« Reply #174 on: October 25, 2005, 03:24:37 pm »

You have unknowingly set the project up for the "violent" disagreement that is already starting to play itself out between early mover "anarchists" and the silent majority of "minarchists" who would like to sign on but can't because they don't agree with the early movers strategy. That is why this ultimately may not be sustainable.

TP, I think you're going a little far in assuming that early movers are anarchists (if I read your post correctly)--Kat and Russell are not everyone.  Frankly, of the 2 dozen or so movers I can think of off-hand (and know personally), I'm aware of maybe 4 or 5 anarchists, and I'm not one of them.

FWIW, while I got all worked up when this broke (and am still really annoyed), I think it's laughable to call the ramblings and proddings of the usual cranky blowhards a "violent disagreement."  There is a split of some sort between movers and nonmovers, but the line between the two is far too hazy to identify, and was rightly the subject of another conversation (re: mission statement). 

As long as Kat and Russell are sidelined by their attitude problems, I think (and hope) it's safe to say that there is no uniform early mover strategy--and there shouldn't be.  I welcome any pro-liberty person who moves here, and I encourage people to do what they can and help each other on common ground.  That's my strategy and I'm sticking to it.
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RidleyReport

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Re: Seditious Ramblings
« Reply #175 on: October 25, 2005, 03:36:56 pm »

With regard to the idea that some FSP board members have worked hard...that is appreciated but is not the issue.

The problem is not that leadership is doing too little.  In a sense they are doing too much!   I told Amanda this six months ago at Milly's.  Like FEMA they are not just failing to deliver, they are actively discouraging and sometimes intercepting "aid shipments."   I don't mind someone failing to deliver...I mind them failing to deliver and then standing in the way of those who *are* delivering.

If you guys in charge are not standing in the way, here is how you can prove it to me.  Give me access to the media coverage page and let me do the work posting links about FSP media coverage.  I will, if given that freedom, post pretty much all media references to the Free State Project which I can find, and pretty much all media coverage of Free Staters.  That will include the FEMA flag burn, the arrest of Lauren Canario and yes even the arrest of Larry Fox.   If I lack the technical ability to update that page, I will try to find someone who can.

The links I post there will convey, accurately, an impression THAT FREE STATERS ARE GETTING THINGS DONE and causing trouble where trouble needs causing.  You would never know that from looking at it now.  PM me with the information I need to begin fixing your media page and I - or my technically superior surrogate - will do what I/we can. 
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ThomasPaine

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Re: Seditious Ramblings
« Reply #176 on: October 25, 2005, 03:40:04 pm »

I believe every act of non-violent civil disobedience in NH has been initiatied by the anarchist early mover wing and the concern from minarchist wing is that these will hurt efforts to build a majority political party. I only used the term "violent" in quotes in response to Steve's attempt at humor.

Quote
I encourage people to do what they can and help each other on common ground. 

There is no common ground on the fundamental question of the role of the state and that leads to one group hurting not helping the ultimate goal of the other -- to build a majority party to take political power.

TeePee
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kater

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Re: Seditious Ramblings
« Reply #177 on: October 25, 2005, 03:40:39 pm »

Just out of curiosity, how would posting the story about Larry Fox give the impression of FSPers getting things done?  I met Larry, thought he was odd, don't understand why he'd get arrested just for having a gun, and know zip about the truth of the meth lab charges--BUT, if he did something intentional by getting arrested and possessing FSP literature in his room at home, I'm unaware of it.
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RidleyReport

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Re: Seditious Ramblings
« Reply #178 on: October 25, 2005, 03:42:26 pm »

atr

<<Would you volunteer to be the ultimate arbiter of who should get a pat on the head (Lauren, Russell, Mike) and who shouldn't (Zack Bass, or the guy in Maryland with the meth lab)?<<

I just did, before I read your post.  Looks like we are on the same page after all :)
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RidleyReport

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Re: Seditious Ramblings
« Reply #179 on: October 25, 2005, 03:45:18 pm »

Kater wrote:

<<Just out of curiosity, how would posting the story about Larry Fox give the impression of FSPers getting things done? >>

well, he got more news coverage for the FSP that week than any of the rest of us.  If it was by accident well then no gold star for him, but it still helped. 
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