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Author Topic: Seditious Ramblings  (Read 105245 times)

Friday

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Re: Seditious Ramblings
« Reply #285 on: October 28, 2005, 06:34:19 am »

The very people screaming the loudest about my "unprofessional" and "discourteous" behavior are the same ones who have repeatedly IGNORED me when I've emailed them, sometimes about time-sensitive issues directly related to recruitment activities for the FSP.  I politely and courteously requested access to the Organizers list so that I could participate in private strategic discussions with the rest of the leadership.  Then I asked again.  Then I asked again.  I'm aware of at least two other very active members who have both contributed a lot over the past year or more who requested admission to that list and were also refused.  So my emails get ignored, I'm denied access to private discussion lists, I have absolutely no way to judge if my posts on this forum are read and/or discussed by the leadership (for example, on the thread about changing the mission of the FSP), because they don't respond on the forum, the meetings are closed, and the minutes are empty.  And then I get pilloried for saying what needs to be said, and discussed, and DEALT WITH, on the only remaining place available to me.

Meanwhile, the oft-heard cry of "Don't just bitch, DO something, and then you'll be considered trustworthy" is tossed about.  I can name at least three times where I volunteered to do something and was either ignored or was told flat out "No thanks, we don't need your help with that." Look around on this forum if you don't believe me. I've seen it happen to other people, too. Hell, on this very thread, Dada offerred to help post FSP news mentions on the website. Not only was his offer not accepted, he was insulted for offering! 

I need a fresh horse.

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lloydbob1

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Re: Seditious Ramblings
« Reply #286 on: October 28, 2005, 07:48:48 am »

I've been reading this thread from its first moments.  I tend not to want to participate in public discussions that might harm others, it's just not productive in my life to go there.  There have been some good thoughts presented here though.

My efforts to help to change and improve the FSP have grown as I've seen needs and stepped forward to try to solve them.  While my name is on the list of volunteers holding a 'position', for me it's all about getting jobs done that I think have value. I endeavor to be professional and courteous in accomplishing my FSP responsibilities. 

If you want to make changes and contributions to help the FSP accomplish its mission, contact Nik, the Volunteer Coordinator volunteer@freestateproject.org  A great way to effectively make changes and foster FSP success is to be a part of it in whatever way you choose.  There are many opportunities to make things happen.

Brian

Love ya, Brian :-*
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Russell Kanning

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Re: Seditious Ramblings
« Reply #287 on: October 28, 2005, 08:59:03 am »

I guess we will just have to work around the FSP leadership Friday.
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The NH Underground - "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -Mahatma Gandhi
New Hampshire Free Press - The Nonviolent Revolution Starts Here

"Resolve to serve no more, and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces." -- Etienne de La Boetie, The Politics of Obedience: The Discourse of Voluntary Servitude

Rocketman

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Re: Seditious Ramblings
« Reply #288 on: October 28, 2005, 09:56:54 am »

Can this organization survive another year?  

A better question would be, "Can this movement be destroyed?"  There are hundreds of us who are planning our moves, and more will follow once a pattern of successes is established in NH.  The FSP requires little organization; it is merely an agreement between thousands of individuals.  Why is that so hard for people to grasp?  I don't care much about the board, simply because the board is NOT the FSP.

Meanwhile, the oft-heard cry of "Don't just bitch, DO something, and then you'll be considered trustworthy" is tossed about. I can name at least three times where I volunteered to do something and was either ignored or was told flat out "No thanks, we don't need your help with that." Look around on this forum if you don't believe me. I've seen it happen to other people, too. Hell, on this very thread, Dada offerred to help post FSP news mentions on the website. Not only was his offer not accepted, he was insulted for offering!

I need a fresh horse.

Friday, I'm grateful to you for bringing these issues to people's attention.  Some of the nasty comments by others were inevitable, but you aren't to blame.  If the leadership doesn't appreciate your efforts to help the FSP, that's unfortunate, but I hope you won't be discouraged.   :) 

And Lloyd, stop kissing Brian this instant!   Disturbing image!  :o
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"Hagrid"

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Re: Seditious Ramblings
« Reply #289 on: October 28, 2005, 10:15:19 am »

The very people screaming the loudest about my "unprofessional" and "discourteous" behavior are the same ones who have repeatedly IGNORED me when I've emailed them, sometimes about time-sensitive issues directly related to recruitment activities for the FSP.

Since I wasn't one of the ones screaming, I can't directly comment on this.  My personal experience is mixed, but I tend to get emails from some of the leadership on near daily manner, and others I never hear much from.  I'm not saying the leadership is perfect, in fact, I've said the opposite: the way to fix it is to get more involved.  I'm not known for being meek... If I feel I'm getting ignored, I tend to cc people I know will light a fire under the butt of whoever it is.... with mixed results, but results none the less.

Sandy, please feel free to cc: me if you ever want butt fires lit.... (grin).

Quote
I politely and courteously requested access to the Organizers list so that I could participate in private strategic discussions with the rest of the leadership.  Then I asked again.  Then I asked again.  I'm aware of at least two other very active members who have both contributed a lot over the past year or more who requested admission to that list and were also refused.

This one I can comment on... I was strongly in favor of adding you and others.  I was overruled by the majority opinion... When I cc:ed 'outsiders' to discussions I felt they should be part of, I was told to stop that.  I won't name names, but suffice it to say, I agree with you: yur complaint _was_ a valid one.

The organizer list is now closed (kicking me and others off it, leaving it for the Board alone, with plans to shut it down fully), and Doers is the only real 'organizer' list.   You are on the Doers list, so at this point, it's moot.

Quote
So my emails get ignored, I'm denied access to private discussion lists, I have absolutely no way to judge if my posts on this forum are read and/or discussed by the leadership (for example, on the thread about changing the mission of the FSP), because they don't respond on the forum, the meetings are closed, and the minutes are empty.  And then I get pilloried for saying what needs to be said, and discussed, and DEALT WITH, on the only remaining place available to me.

1) Some do respond on the forum.  Not everyone, but percentage-wise MOST do.
2) There are plenty of open meetings - the weekly volunteer conference call for one...
3) The entire minutes question is pointless.  Discussion isn't in the minutes and shouldn't be, except noted as 'Discussion followed'.
The vote is what matters.  If you feel that you want to know the discussion, ask someone on the board privately.  Stop asking for dirty laundry to be aired in public, it wastes your time and pissed off those who have to wear the clothes dirty or clean.


Quote
Meanwhile, the oft-heard cry of "Don't just bitch, DO something, and then you'll be considered trustworthy" is tossed about.  I can name at least three times where I volunteered to do something and was either ignored or was told flat out "No thanks, we don't need your help with that."

Nik is doing a great job.  No argument that in the past, getting new people involved was difficult.  Nik and Tim are changing that, with the support and blessing of many of us.

Quote
Look around on this forum if you don't believe me. I've seen it happen to other people, too. Hell, on this very thread, Dada offerred to help post FSP news mentions on the website. Not only was his offer not accepted, he was insulted for offering! 

Dave doesn't know the difference between bad press and good press.  Sorry, but it's true.  He's a bad choice, and many of us are opposed to putting the PR reins in his hands.  This isn't new, he's gotten that same message before, numerous times from of us, and he has yet to acknowledge the lesson.  Tom posts things just fine... and the next gen of the website will be more automated (so that when Google News picks something up, any of a number of trusted people can put it on the front page OR not, depending on the PR value of it.)
« Last Edit: October 28, 2005, 10:18:05 am by SethCohn »
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FreeBoB

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Re: Seditious Ramblings
« Reply #290 on: October 28, 2005, 10:37:41 am »

Can this organization survive another year?   

A better question would be, "Can this movement be destroyed?"  There are hundreds of us who are planning our moves, and more will follow once a pattern of successes is established in NH.  The FSP requires little organization; it is merely an agreement between thousands of individuals.  Why is that so hard for people to grasp?  I don't care much about the board, simply because the board is NOT the FSP.

Excellent point Matt.  And, there are hundreds more who are actually making real plans to move that we NEVER hear from.  I 'found' 5 recently moved Participants just last month who were not yet counted as movers and I'm sure there are many more in NH*.  There are thousands out there who are genuinely thrilled to escape their respective states and are making real concrete plans to make moves in the short to medium term!  I know that to be true because every day I talk to them on the phone and by email and they don't care or even know about the FSP leadership!   :o

* contact FSP Welcome Wagon when you are planning to visit and move! http://www.freestateproject.org/community/welcomewagon/

Brian 
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Rocketman

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Re: Seditious Ramblings
« Reply #291 on: October 28, 2005, 12:21:57 pm »

Excellent point Matt. And, there are hundreds more who are actually making real plans to move that we NEVER hear from. I 'found' 5 recently moved Participants just last month who were not yet counted as movers and I'm sure there are many more in NH*. There are thousands out there who are genuinely thrilled to escape their respective states and are making real concrete plans to make moves in the short to medium term! I know that to be true because every day I talk to them on the phone and by email and they don't care or even know about the FSP leadership! :o

* contact FSP Welcome Wagon when you are planning to visit and move! http://www.freestateproject.org/community/welcomewagon/

Brian
 
Love ya, Brian :-*
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Steve

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Re: Seditious Ramblings
« Reply #292 on: October 28, 2005, 02:45:46 pm »

The very people screaming the loudest about my "unprofessional" and "discourteous" behavior are the same ones who have repeatedly IGNORED me when I've emailed them, sometimes about time-sensitive issues directly related to recruitment activities for the FSP.  I politely and courteously requested access to the Organizers list so that I could participate in private strategic discussions with the rest of the leadership.  Then I asked again.  Then I asked again.  I'm aware of at least two other very active members who have both contributed a lot over the past year or more who requested admission to that list and were also refused.  So my emails get ignored, I'm denied access to private discussion lists, I have absolutely no way to judge if my posts on this forum are read and/or discussed by the leadership (for example, on the thread about changing the mission of the FSP), because they don't respond on the forum, the meetings are closed, and the minutes are empty.  And then I get pilloried for saying what needs to be said, and discussed, and DEALT WITH, on the only remaining place available to me.

Meanwhile, the oft-heard cry of "Don't just bitch, DO something, and then you'll be considered trustworthy" is tossed about.  I can name at least three times where I volunteered to do something and was either ignored or was told flat out "No thanks, we don't need your help with that." Look around on this forum if you don't believe me. I've seen it happen to other people, too. Hell, on this very thread, Dada offerred to help post FSP news mentions on the website. Not only was his offer not accepted, he was insulted for offering! 

The way you describe it, it sounds like *everyone* ignored your e-mails, and that Dada's comments were totally blown off.  Could you at least acknowledge that I generally exchange e-mail with you freely, and that I answered Dada's post with courtesy, pointing out that ALL FSP news mentions (from Google News) are already appearing on the site?  Dada himself apologized for the error.  ALL of us, me included, can name occasions when we have been insulted by others here, but it requires a very selective memory to suggest that this is the rule and not the exception.  There are a very few people here for whom invective is a normal mode of speech; you should just ignore them, and exercise your freedom of association to work only with the cooperators.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2005, 04:15:06 am by Steve »
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Russell Kanning

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Re: Seditious Ramblings
« Reply #293 on: October 28, 2005, 05:13:31 pm »

Dave doesn't know the difference between bad press and good press.  Sorry, but it's true.  He's a bad choice, and many of us are opposed to putting the PR reins in his hands.  This isn't new, he's gotten that same message before, numerous times from of us, and he has yet to acknowledge the lesson. 

Bad activist! Haven't you learned your lesson yet? >:(
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The NH Underground - "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -Mahatma Gandhi
New Hampshire Free Press - The Nonviolent Revolution Starts Here

"Resolve to serve no more, and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces." -- Etienne de La Boetie, The Politics of Obedience: The Discourse of Voluntary Servitude

Russell Kanning

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Re: Seditious Ramblings
« Reply #294 on: October 28, 2005, 05:14:25 pm »

and the next gen of the website will be more automated (so that when Google News picks something up, any of a number of trusted people can put it on the front page OR not, depending on the PR value of it.)

can you say "vaporware"?
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The NH Underground - "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -Mahatma Gandhi
New Hampshire Free Press - The Nonviolent Revolution Starts Here

"Resolve to serve no more, and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces." -- Etienne de La Boetie, The Politics of Obedience: The Discourse of Voluntary Servitude

freedomroad

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Re: Seditious Ramblings
« Reply #295 on: October 28, 2005, 11:19:13 pm »

I know that some of you have bad feelings for another member of the Free State Project.  I know it seems like it may be hard to work with them in NH.

Well, I used to be in the same situation.  Keith M. and I were highly involved in the great state debate.  I backed WY and he backed NH.  Well, we both did some things that might be considered less than honorable.  We both thought that we would never work with each other. 

However, time past and we both gained some insight on the situation.  I saw in while I was in NH for the 2005 PorcFest.  We got along quite well and currently hold no bad feelings for each other. 

Remember, we are all working for liberty.  We are all on the same team.
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Russell Kanning

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Re: Seditious Ramblings
« Reply #296 on: October 29, 2005, 03:37:36 am »

Some of the polititians are not on my side.
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The NH Underground - "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." -Mahatma Gandhi
New Hampshire Free Press - The Nonviolent Revolution Starts Here

"Resolve to serve no more, and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces." -- Etienne de La Boetie, The Politics of Obedience: The Discourse of Voluntary Servitude

freedom's ideologue

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Re: Seditious Ramblings
« Reply #297 on: October 31, 2005, 01:15:02 pm »

Quote
Like the government, we are expected to serve all your needs and vilified when we do not. The success of the FSP mission depends on indvidual actions, not the collective power of corporate office-holders. If you want something done, then do it. If you have an idea of what you would like "the leadership" to do, please share it. We are not deaf, but the recurring message is complaining without any guide to corrective action.

For my part, when I moved to NH, I pretty much washed my hands of the FSP.  Not because I hate the FSP or think that it is corrupt or worthless, just simply because the goal of the FSP is to recruit people from outside of NH to join, and since I'm already in NH, the FSP no longer applies to me.

But everybody seems to be taking the criticisms too personally.  I think what those who are criticising are trying to say is that it doesn't do any good to ask people to leave their home state and come to New Hampshire if they aren't being told what is being done in NH.

It's sort of like Jesus.  One of his disciples is asked, "Can anything good come out of Galilee?" and the disciple said, "Come and see!"  But it wasn't just the admonition to come and see, it was to come and see what he had ALREADY HEARD!  So if you want to encourage someone in Idaho to come and move to NH, then I think it makes sense to say, "Come and see!  We're doing this and that.  If you like politics, John Doe is doing this.  If you like civil disobedience, Jane Doe is doing this.  There's lots going on."  You don't have to take a position.  You're right, different people have different ideas about what should be done, but if you give examples of different actions that people are doing, then it becomes a case of telling people, "However you want to fight ... we have people doing it in NH."  And they can get excited by real examples, and not about "possibilities".  It's about what we're DOING, not what we MIGHT DO ONE DAY.

I think its a little disingenuous too for the leadership to pretend that they are above the fro on this one.  What I hear from the leadership is claims of "we don't discriminate, its whatever people want to do," but then they speak out of both sides of their mouths because then they say that "What some people are doing is destructive to our cause."  So they admit that they do have biases.  The leadership is just like everyone else:  They have a specific way that they think it ought to be done, and hence anyone who isn't doing it their way is just going about it completely wrong.  But if you want to lead a group with diverse opinions, you can't let those private beliefs affect the way you treat those who go about it differently than you want them to.  You're not going to get 20,000 people who all believe the same thing and want to work in the exact same way to move.  You're just not.  But you might get 20,000 people who all believe in Liberty, and just have different ideas.  And if your attitude is that those who differ from you are "wasting their time" or worse, "harming the movement", than you've lost before you even begin.

Caleb
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Dreepa

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Re: Seditious Ramblings
« Reply #298 on: October 31, 2005, 01:29:04 pm »

So if you want to encourage someone in Idaho to come and move to NH, then I think it makes sense to say, "Come and see!  We're doing this and that.  If you like politics, John Doe is doing this.  If you like civil disobedience, Jane Doe is doing this.  There's lots going on."  You don't have to take a position.  You're right, different people have different ideas about what should be done, but if you give examples of different actions that people are doing, then it becomes a case of telling people, "However you want to fight ... we have people doing it in NH."  And they can get excited by real examples, and not about "possibilities".  It's about what we're DOING, not what we MIGHT DO ONE DAY.
Caleb

Well put Caleb!
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lloydbob1

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Re: Seditious Ramblings
« Reply #299 on: October 31, 2005, 02:58:08 pm »


For my part, when I moved to NH, I pretty much washed my hands of the FSP.  Not because I hate the FSP or think that it is corrupt or worthless, just simply because the goal of the FSP is to recruit people from outside of NH to join, and since I'm already in NH, the FSP no longer applies to me.

Well, you can leave the state, once in a while, and do some recruiting.
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