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["Hagrid"]

Russell, I'm sure some reasonable part of your brain doesn't really agree with what you just wrote.  Are you honestly saying that any press is good press?

Actually, Dada just said that.  Hmm.

Bingo.  Kate sees the problem.

I don't want a situation in which I feel compelled to put down your activism; I want them to coexist independently.

We've already been been in that situation, thanks to the radicals, and they've been putting down those of us working with the system, publically and openly from almost the beginning. 

The radical fringe is intolerant of anyone who isn't 'libertarian enough'.... and continues to work against real change in the worst macho flash way possible....   As far as I'm concerned, we have more to fear from the likes of them than we do from the hardcore leftists at this point... because the stabbing attacks from the leftists are from the front, not the back.

[Dreepa]

We've already been been in that situation, thanks to the radicals, and they've been putting down those of us working with the system, publically and openly from almost the beginning. 

The radical fringe is intolerant of anyone who isn't 'libertarian enough'.... and continues to work against real change in the worst macho flash way possible....   As far as I'm concerned, we have more to fear from the likes of them than we do from the hardcore leftists at this point... because the stabbing attacks from the leftists are from the front, not the back.

Dude that is a quote right out of Russian communism history.  Trotsky vs Stalin vs Lenin

["Hagrid"]

Dude that is a quote right out of Russian communism history.  Trotsky vs Stalin vs Lenin

Not sure it's quite a parallel, but since I'm not a student of Russian history, maybe you can explain it?

This is not a new battle, by any means, of course... the entire history of the LP is filled with the conflicts of minarchists and anarchists and so on, and it continues to this day.... and it's one of the reasons the LP is a failure.... because it's tried to walk a middle ground and please the radical fringes who then controlled the discussion.

As I've said before, I was considered a radical elsewhere before I moved to NH, but here I'm a moderate : My views haven't changed one bit - but here I'm far more mainstream, because the Traditional Granite State view IS more libertarian in scope and view. 

With 20K, or even 2K _real_ activists for liberty working _politically_ (not flag burning or civil disobediance or non-voting - but real mainstream, within the system, activism thru elections and so on), we can make a difference because we will have many tens/hundreds of thousands of non-activists who do agree in many ways, and will vote and support that process.   But right now, we don't have even 200 real political activists here.

[Dreepa]

Trotsky vs Lenin vs Stalin vs otehr commies... were all on the same side but they would up going in circles because they would debate about their differences rather than the things that they agreed upon.
(Same thing with the 'White Russian Armies vs the Red Army')

I agree that 2K is probably enough. (Maybe the FSP should lower to 10K-- we can get there faster! and then hope that 20% move?)  Hell I was one of 8 people at the Selectman meeting in my town last night.

[Friday]

FWIW, while I got all worked up when this broke (and am still really annoyed), I think it's laughable to call the ramblings and proddings of the usual cranky blowhards a "violent disagreement."  There is a split of some sort between movers and nonmovers, but the line between the two is far too hazy to identify, and was rightly the subject of another conversation (re: mission statement). 

Thanks for your honesty, Kate, in letting me know that you find my thoughts "laughable" and myself a "cranky blowhard".  Guess we won't be spending a lot of time working together for freedom in New Hampshire. 

[JonM]

I seriously doubt kater was talking about you Friday.

[Friday]

BTW...i always think this but never say it...yet I hope those of you on each side will hear it and do it.

Gandhi always tried to fight evil systems without disliking the people behind them.  He was not against individuals.

Same with us...we need to fight for and against systems but we need to not let ourselves dislike each other.

I really like Kate and Adam even tho I am on the opposite side of this debate with them sometimes; Amanda is a blast to be around and argue with, I like Don Gorman who I never agree with on method and heck I can even tolerate the Seth Lord himself!   As long as we don't let it get too personal, we will benefit from fighting!   Where we lose is where we get angry with each other.  Kat you are just too quick to get angry at folks who don't 100% see it your way. Usually you are right in the FSP context, but you're letting it get too personal.  the same could be said for many of us.  Just have fun !

Right on, Dada.  Insert often-used Franklin quote about hanging separately here.

[lloydbob1]

I seriously doubt kater was talking about you Friday.

So do I.

[lloydbob1]

The radical fringe is intolerant of anyone who isn't 'libertarian enough'.... and continues to work against real change in the worst macho flash way possible....   As far as I'm concerned, we have more to fear from the likes of them than we do from the hardcore leftists at this point... because the stabbing attacks from the leftists are from the front, not the back.

Your 'off the hip' drivel rhetoric is becoming as sad bad as Russell's,  Seth.  I don't think it's 'libertarian enough', it's 'anarchist enough'.
I don't believe their activism is going to effect your political efforts any more than what you do will effect them.

[Morey]

First, I was already willing to consider Board elections (and have proposed them), but I would not characterize it as "elected representation." The Board's job is not to represent Participants, but to oversee the organization's mission--getting pro-liberty activists to move to New Hampshire.

Second, I am no longer a member of the Board, having resigned about a week ago.

It isn't important how long you've held the view.  Since it is/was welcome news (at least to me) I felt good about it.

Thank you for all you have done in the past as a board member.  And whatever your reasons for leaving the board, I have to respect you for making that determination of your own volition.  No term limits required 

["Hagrid"]

The radical fringe is intolerant of anyone who isn't 'libertarian enough'

Your 'off the hip' drivel rhetoric is becoming as sad bad as Russell's,  Seth.  I don't think it's 'libertarian enough', it's 'anarchist enough'.

I was being generally inclusive, because the 'fringe' is more than just the NHFree crowd... the 'more libertarian than thou' crowd who drive off those who are only 70-80% libertarian minded here on the FSP forum is in the same vein, and hurts the FSP just as much by pushing off potential people who might move except they are seemingly rejected by the radicals as 'not lib enough' before they can commit to moving. 

NHFree is more anarchic in general, but the _rest_ of NH doesn't know the difference... they think it's the "Free Staters", and lump it all together...  And the anarchs wonder why they are getting disowned?

I don't believe their activism is going to eaffect your political efforts any more than what you do will eaffect them.

Don't believe it...  I've already see it happen, and had to deal with it.  Your belief doesn't match my reality.

[Morey]

Morey, how do those things get us closer to 20K? What we need are more people *doing* things.  Not rehashing old ideas, not talking, not criticizing, but doing.  There are plenty of open opportunities:
http://www.freestateproject.org/about/organization.php
http://freestateproject.org/getinvolved/activistcenter.php
Not a one of the things you mention above compares with your having created the FSP matchbooks that were so popular at MassCan, or the presence at MassCan of Sandy, Amanda, Lloyd and others, which got us several new signups and the endorsement of Keith Stroup, national director of NORML:
http://photos.freestateproject.org/main.php?g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemId=5019
We need more of this constructive action, not talk.

I agree, Steve.  We have a lot of good things happening, and we need to keep it coming.  I also think we should embrace change.  If the bus driver is asleep at the wheel, let's tuck him or her into a free seat for a nap, and let others have a go at the controls.  Why is that such a bad idea?

[lloydbob1]

Don't believe it...  I've already see it happen, and had to deal with it.  Your belief doesn't match my reality.

details?

[ThomasPaine]

and heck I can even tolerate the Seth Lord himself!   As long as we don't let it get too personal, we will benefit from fighting!

Between these sort of  comments which NHFree's forum thrives on, and Dada's general inability to distinguish good press from bad, I rest my case about the radical fringe's becoming more and more of a problem and not part of the solution.

Dada, please remove my phone number from your cellphone.  I can't tolerate Mr Dave Ridley, media god in his own mind.

Amen brother!

TeePee

[KBCraig]

NHFree is more anarchic in general, but the _rest_ of NH doesn't know the difference... they think it's the "Free Staters", and lump it all together...  And the anarchs wonder why they are getting disowned?

You mentioned earlier in the thread how you were seen as a radical before moving to NH, and now you're considered middle of the road.

Actually, I think you were radical before seeking public office, and now you're afraid of being "tainted" by any association --even a passing aquaintance-- with the more radical elements of the freedom movement.

I'm not one of the anarchists; while I think true anarchy would be a good idea, I believe it's against human nature, and so I strive for minarchy. But having watched what seems to be a change in attitude by some of those seeking office, I understand the anarchists' penchant for eschewing the system and working outside of politics.

It's true that not much political change can be effected without electing those who agree with our views. But if those who get elected become too much a part of the system, will they really effect change?

Good luck with your run for school board. I truly hope you make it. I truly hope you're able to push through some incremental changes, or at least stanch the flow. But more than that, I hope you will stop being so sensitive, and stop worrying that you'll be accused of having FSP Disease.

Kevin