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Author Topic: Green Party to set up it's own Free State project?  (Read 7016 times)

adam3

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Green Party to set up it's own Free State project?
« on: December 21, 2002, 02:05:17 pm »

I would like to make the obvious comment that we (Jeffersonians) are outnumbered by the Greens by quit a large amount. What if they were to decide to counter our project with one of of their own? They could easily muster 40,000 members to their state. Look at Vermont after the 60's (someone on this board mentioned about 20,000 hippies moved to vermont) 20,000 socialists to a small state without even organizing. It seems that the green party could easily get 60,000 to any state, and that to lessen this threat to us, we should choose a state that is predominantly Republican. This will make it easier for us to institute tax cuts, and then go from there on the rest of our platform. I would recommend choosing a western state (wyoming has only one county were registered dems outnumber registered republicans, and bush still won in that county). Moving to vermont would simply counter act the hippies who moved there. The other eastern states have a Democrat majority, and more Massachussettes citizens are moving to NH, which will make it more difficult for us to change that state. Deleware is surronded by big government, and Maine is to close to NH. I would recommend wyoming due to it's Conservative(fiscal) slant, it's low population, and it's proximity to other candidate states. (we could turn wyoming into a factory for making jeffersoinians who could then move to the other candidate states.)
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Zxcv

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Re:Green Party to set up it's own Free State project?
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2002, 03:29:43 pm »

Well, I'm not sure there are more greens than libertarians...

But you've brought up a good point. Anyone can copy this idea. That's not a bad thing; on the contrary one of the points of federalism was to allow states to have diverse forms of government so the best could come to light. So, I think it would be fine to have a GSP (greens), a CSP (conservatives), and so forth.

Your other point is something to think about. We don't want to get into battling State Projects in the same state! Probably the state most likely for that scenario is Vermont. The socialists won't want to give it up. As to inoculating ourselves by choosing a conservative state, hmmm. Are we conservatives?  ;)
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varrin

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Re:Green Party to set up it's own Free State project?
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2002, 05:17:55 pm »

I think California is the GSP...

V-

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BillG

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Re:Green Party (clearing up a few misconceptions)...
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2002, 11:37:59 pm »

Hello from a Libertarian Green Geoist!

Here is where I believe we (greens & libertarians) would have some things in common:

1) End the war on drugs & other victimless crimes;
2) End US imperialism & mindless globalization;
3) End corporate welfare & hold accountable for their actions;
4) End monopoly priviledge & socializing pollution;
5) Most greens and most libertarians are pro-choice
6) End the war on civil liberties by repealing of the Patriot Act;
7) Strengthen ballot access laws - IRV & fusion

A few of the ten key values taken directly from the Green's website that FSP maybe interested to know:

GRASSROOTS DEMOCRACY
Every human being deserves a say in the decisions that affect their lives and not be subject to the will of another. Therefore, we will work to increase public participation at every level of government and to ensure that our public representatives are fully accountable to the people who elect them. We will also work to create new types of political organizations which expand the process of participatory democracy by directly including citizens in the decision-making process.

NON-VIOLENCE
It is essential that we develop effective alternatives to society’s current patterns of violence. We will work to demilitarize, and eliminate weapons of mass destruction, without being naive about the intentions of other governments.  We recognize the need for self-defense and the defense of others who are in helpless situations. We promote non-violent methods to oppose practices and policies with which we disagree, and will guide our actions toward lasting personal, community and global peace

DECENTRALIZATION
Centralization of wealth and power contributes to social and economic injustice, environmental destruction, and militarization. Therefore, we support a restructuring of social, political and economic institutions away from a system which is controlled by and mostly benefits the powerful few, to a democratic, less bureaucratic system. Decision-making should, as much as possible, remain at the individual and local level, while assuring that civil rights are protected for all citizens.


adam3 wrote:
Quote
I would like to make the obvious comment that we (Jeffersonians) are outnumbered by the Greens by quit a large amount

Why do you make the assumption that there aren't Greens who are Jeffersonians?

Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826) wrote, "The earth is given as a common stock for men to labor and to live on... Wherever in any country there are idle lands and unemployed poor, it is clear that the laws of property have been so far extended as to violate natural right. Everyone may have land to labor for himself, if he chooses; or, preferring the exercise of any other industry, may exact for it such compensation as not only to afford a comfortable subsistence, but wherewith to provide for a cessation from labor in old age." (Notes on Virginia, 1791)

Zxcv wrote:
Quote
Well, I'm not sure there are more greens than libertarians...

Here in NH during the 2000 presidential election Nader collected 10 times the votes Browne did!

There is a distinct & growing tendency within the Greens who call themselves Geo-libertarians (or Geoists) - they just happened to be currently subsumed by the populists (Naderites) and progressives (eco-socialists) who have both flooded the Greens as the only viable alternative third party to the Republicrats. History of this "land-based" faction can be traced to these three stalwarts of the American Revolution: Locke, Paine & Jefferson and synthesizes so eloquently by US born, 19th century political economist Henry George.

The Greens & Libertarians TOGETHER could take votes from both the left and the right!!!

Geol-libertarians:
http://www.geolib.com

Greens & Libertarians:
http://www.geolib.com/essays/sullivan.dan/greenlibertarians.html

Green Tax shift:
http://www.progress.org/banneker/shift.html

Here in NH - which is one of the most Conservative (of the Yankee variety - fiscally prudent) & libertarian states in the nation. W/ no broadbase taxes only local property tax and many towns still being governed via the local town meeting (plus 1 state rep/3,000 citizens). This is what a basic Green Libertarian platform might look like (with a decidedly Geoist slant).

1. shift all taxes off of buildings and onto land (collecting "economic rent") to end speculative profiteering by individuals of socially created wealth.
- housing (single family homes & apt.) prices would drop
- construction jobs would increase
- sprawl would be curtailed while downtowns revitalized.
2. gradually start collecting "environmental utilization rents" (put into a trust) from activities known to pollute our air and water which keeps us all from the enjoyment and right to a healthy world.
- alternative/decentralized energy systems would be encouraged cutting down on foreign oil dependence.
- trust would rebate to all a "citizens dividend" directly bypassing gov't coffers.
3. end all corporate tax breaks/subsidizes and challenge the corporate "personhood" status.
4. devolve power from the state to "shires" (small groups of towns based on bioregions) that encourage face-to-face participatory democracy.
- create locally based currency to stimulate local economy
5. in exchange (voluntary) for "citizens dividend" encourage everyone to participate in the creation of a vibrant civic & artistic culture to counter the growing influence of corporations in our political institutions.

does anyone see a basis for working together?
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underwater

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Re:Green Party to set up it's own Free State project?
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2003, 02:47:09 am »

Bill,

I sent you a message, but maybe you did not see it. Please check out:

http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=22;action=display;threadid=951

We want to try some of these ideas out on a voluntary basis. If they work in a small community then I think people will naturally adopt them. I view the Free State as a place with a weak, externally-facing state government that lets us conduct internal political experiments. How fun!  :D
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MLiq

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Re:Green Party to set up it's own Free State project?
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2003, 01:33:25 am »

I disagree with the assertion that NH is bad because more Mass residents are moving there.  NH is not that close to Boston.  It is a very inconvenient commute.  If people move there its because the specifically want to enjoy NH's freedoms.  NH is the most libertarian state in the country.  It has the most elected Libertarians by quite a large margin.  This alone should make it the obvious choice for the FSP.  

Those who move to NH but work in the Boston area do so at great inconvenience to them specifically because they enjoy the freedoms and lessened tax burden of NH.  NH is over an hour away from Boston, not counting the incredible traffic they often have in the Boston area.  

Vermont is another matter.  It may well become a Green state and I think that would be good as we do have many things in common with them.    I have met many Nader voters, Green Party aficionados who are Libertarian on most or even all issues, but either do not have a clue about the LP, or simply saw Nader as the only 3rd candidate with any chance in hell, and so were willing to take the bad with the good.  Many GPers are outright socialists as well, no doubt about that.  But they are better than Democrats.  
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thewaka

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Re:Green Party to set up it's own Free State project?
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2003, 02:28:28 am »

NH is the most libertarian state in the country.  It has the most elected Libertarians by quite a large margin.  This alone should make it the obvious choice for the FSP.
Per the LP website, NH has 26 public office holders (two people hold 2 offices each, so 26 offices, 24 office holders). However, PA has 67 (3 dupes w/ 2 offices each). Does this mean we should choose PA? Please, do your homework better before making statements that are so easily disproven.

BTW, I checked all the candidate states, and NH beats them all. The 2nd highest was VT with 20, multiple dupes with 3 offices each.

Diana
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freedomroad

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Re:Green Party to set up it's own Free State project?
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2003, 05:09:02 am »

I disagree with the assertion that NH is bad because more Mass residents are moving there.  NH is not that close to Boston.  It is a very inconvenient commute.  If people move there its because the specifically want to enjoy NH's freedoms.  NH is the most libertarian state in the country.  It has the most elected Libertarians by quite a large margin.  This alone should make it the obvious choice for the FSP.  

I do not feel that NH is the most libertarian state in the nation.  I compared all 50 states on 15 diffent sets of laws.  See http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=967

According to my research WY, SD, and AK are tied for being the most libertarian state in the country.

NV, CO, TX, and MT are close behind.

NH is the most libertarian state in the Northeast.

Also, NH does not have the most elected Libertarian Party members.  None of the 50 states have enough elected officical or enough elected LP members to high positions to weld any power in any of the state.  The only real power the LP has right now is in getting 3-10% in a few elections and thus allowing the D Party to win over the R Party from time to time in elections that the R Party would have otherwise one.
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jgmaynard

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Re:Green Party to set up it's own Free State project?
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2003, 07:28:23 pm »

We work quite well with all other parties, including the Grens, in New Hampshire.

In Keene, our college Lib group a couple years ago did a musical benefit concert with them to buy land in the rain forest. We raised enough money to buy 7 1/2 acres. :D

Just because we may not agree with them on whether the government should own the land, doesn't mean that they aren't interested in private easements, etc.

The LPNH policy to other parties - Friends with all, entangling alliances with none. :)

JM
« Last Edit: July 04, 2003, 07:28:57 pm by jgmaynard »
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Sebastian

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Re:Green Party to set up it's own Free State project?
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2003, 09:28:04 pm »

Let them try (greens setting up own free state).

It would actually aid our cause.

1) Some of the greens moving would move from our state to their state, leaving less greens to worry about in our state.

2) Inevitably, our own free state project would be mentioned everytime the green free state is mentioned, meaning we get some free publicity.

3) More choice for US citizens is a good thing. As long as they don't bother us in our state, more power to them.

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Radar

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Re:Green Party to set up it's own Free State project?
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2003, 09:44:54 pm »

Republicans are statists every bit as much as the socialists in the Green Party and Democratic party.  They are no friend of small government.  They outspend Democrats, and violate our rights far more efficiently.  They promote large, expensive, and intrusive government every time.  

I could care less if the greens make a FSP as long as it's not in our state.  They can have California or Oregon, they're already halfway there.    Those states are filled to the brim with ignorant socialists.
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robmayn

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Re:Green Party to set up it's own Free State project?
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2003, 09:49:35 pm »

Quit giving them ideas !  ;D

Actually the Green party is already in Vermont, and I wouldn't be too worried. Vermont just elected a Republican Governor and Lt. Governor. The Green party received 0.3% of the vote in the Governor's race, and only 1% in the Congressional election(although the left leaning Independent won).

The only reason why the Greens are not a force in Vermont is because the "Progressive Coalition" is already a major force in Vermont politics.  (Most leftist/socialists are either involved with the Progressive Party, or the Progressive wing of the Democratic Party.)  

As for the 2002 elections, they were an absolute diasater for the cause of limited goverment in Vermont.  We had been making progress in the legistative elections during the 1998 and 2000 election cycles because a small revolt against big government was stirring.  All of that progress was wiped out in the 2002 elections, as we got creamed in the House and Senate races.  A lot of the freedom fighters who got elected in the 1998 and 2000 rebellion against bigger government were defeated.  The only reason why Republicans won the Gov. and Lt. Gov. races was because of third party candidates, who split the vote.  Our
"Republican" Governor led the push for an Act 60 education funding "Reform" bill that is as bad, or worse than the original.  Because it was pushed by Republicans, it is seen as the "conservative" pro-business position.  Only a few brave souls have spoken out against this monstrosity and the mimi rebellion that seemed to be gaining steam from 1998 to 2000, is effectively dead.

This has led me to reconsider my support for Vermont and switch to New Hampshire.

As far as the "Independent" Congressman who "leans" leftist, you are talking about Bernie Sanders.  Bernie is a former Liberty Union Party member and a founding father of Vermont's Progressive Coalition.  While he skillfully portrays himself as an "Independent", he is a rabid socialist.
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Racer X

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Re:Green Party to set up it's own Free State project?
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2003, 10:43:37 pm »

Quote
This has led me to reconsider my support for Vermont and switch to New Hampshire.

robmayn,

After reviewing more info, I also reconsidered my support fot VT.  I now rank VT near the middle.  That post was from December.  However, I feel that New Hampshire's high poulation growth and potential for statist immigration(despite those fleeing VT) will be a long term negative for NH.  I also feel that the New Hampshire effort is too closely tied with the LP.  Wyoming is now my first choice, most likely followed by AK, MT, ID, but I'm still not sure how I'll rank all ten.  I will most likely rank NH 9th or 10th.

Racer X
« Last Edit: July 04, 2003, 11:05:48 pm by Racer X »
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StevenN

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Re:Green Party to set up it's own Free State project?
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2003, 12:11:14 am »

The worry that a GSP would come to the FSP and "take over" seems like a ridiculous and irrational fear. Look how afraid porcupines of any type of fight at all. Heck, the main reason why people don't like DE IMO is that it is close to DC! "Progressives" would know what we're trying to do, and avoid the free state like the plague.

And of course, as Bill and others have so well put, Greens could be very good allies. I think of myself as leaning towards geo-libertarianism.
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