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Author Topic: Free state = SOVEREIGN state?  (Read 12939 times)

Mike Lorrey

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Re: Free state = SOVEREIGN state?
« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2006, 03:49:48 pm »

Seccession is a dangerous word. In this modern world however, words like "terrorism" and "criminal conspiracy" replace old words like "revolution" and "liberation"

So the US may not secede from the UN?
The power of secession is simply a matter of original intent: i.e. the states either intended that they were the ultimate final arbiters of their own self-rule-- or that such was ceded to the Union proper.
Lincoln claimed the latter, i.e that the had states always belonged to "the Union--" and that the Articles of Confederation made it a PERPETUAL union, while the Constitution made it an even "more perfect" Union than that.

In REALITY, we know that the states seceded from the prior confederation UNILATERALLY, to form the Constitutional Republic.
This is found in the Constition itself-- ala the very wording of Article VII, i.e. "The Ratification of the Conventions of nine States, shall be sufficient for the Establishment of this Constitution between the States so ratifying the Same."

This is not true. The states did not secede from the Articles of Confederation, the Congress of the Confederation simply adjourned, sine die, which means they let it lie, without secession or abdication. The Articles of Confederation are, in fact, simply dormant, but as they do not assert legal supremacy over the constitutions of the several states, and where state constitutions retain a right to revolution and state sovereignty, the AoC's title has no force.


Since 9<13, then  this was obviously a different union than the Confederation; likewise, Madison makes clear in Federalist 43 that the states seceded UNILATERALLY via power of their invidual sovereignty-- in outright BREACH of the Articles themselves.

Hence, for Lincoln to claim that "the Union matured," is a blatant falsehood, while the claim of a "Union perpetuity" was so much B.S.  by Lincoln; whether or not he knew it to be B.S, is purely irrelevant (except as to the academic historical issue of whether he was the world's worst tyrant, or simply the world's biggest MORON)-- but it's hard to fathom that such a great lawyer would be so ass-ignorant.

Madison says no such thing in Fed 43.

And what if New Hampshire managed to Secceed from the US? They would only sanction us into submission or tarriff us to death. Fortunately new Hampshire is coastal. (How much of the water does New Hampshire lay claim to?)

Go to mapquest for your answer; however all the tariffs and sanctions in the world, could not supersede the value of libery.

True, however, to respond to the original commenter, New Hampshire could easily join GATT/WTO or other bilateral trade agreements, and besides its seacoast, which it has a corridor to international waters from, we also have the border with Canada. While at one time, the US could have blocked such an accession to WTO, they have essentially lost control of that body. On another point: the US cannot tariff its own exports, it can only tariff our exports to US states. Given how poorly the feds are maintaining the borders with Mexico and Canada, what makes you think they'd be at all effective enforcing a blockade of NH?

A greater economic impact would be the unemployment resulting from blocking NH citizens from their jobs out of state, however, that may have its own benefits, forcing statist residents to choose their jobs over their liberty, resulting in a massive exodus of anti-liberty residents in the state. This would in fact solidify our political influence by diminishing the strength of those opposed to us here.


A second Civil war would be bloodier than anyone could imagine. Would new Hampshire win the approval of it's local National Guard? If not you would find yourself fighting a (better armed) enemy within. Local free standing Militias would not have the fire power necessary to be effective. Air Support wins wars.

This would be a war of words- and a battle of truth. The simple question would be: did the states surrender their individual sovereignty-- or not?
There is NOTHING in the Constitution, which claims that the states cannot secede from the Union-- which indicates that they remain sovereign.

Not quite. The US Constitution has provisions that apply to transfers of property from state to state, requiring legislative approval of the states involved and the approval of congress (which is the process we are pursuing with Killington, VT). We also have the precedent of the legal secession of the Phillipines and Cuba from the US, as well as legal votes on secession by Puerto Rico. Contrary to what some think, there is a legal process to secede. The Southern States who seceded at the start of the Civil War simply acted illegally: refusing to pursue passage of a secession bil in congress, and instead they walked out of congress, leaving it rump without a quorum, which was a situation the Constitution was not designed to deal with, and as such, their act was lawfully considered rebellion.

As I've stated previously, pretexual acts matter. Walking out without seeking to pass a secession bill was an agressive pretextual act. If instead they sought secession, and upon losing passage in congress, sued in the Supreme Court, and upon losing in the Supreme Court, they can then justify their act by these past refusals of the feds to redress their greivances. You have to go through ALL the steps before being justified in secession.

Secession is an act of force in the international court of concience. It is an anarchical court of society between sovereigns, and as such, ultima ratio regum is only justified when all other attempts to redress greivances have been rebuffed.
The International Libertarian: The Journal of Liberty For Everyone, Everywhere, All The Time
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