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Author Topic: XVI Amendment  (Read 38494 times)

SeanSchade

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Re: XVI Amendment
« Reply #45 on: October 25, 2006, 02:10:31 pm »


The Federal Government is the largest employer in the country with around 2 million employees. That's a lot of jobs to replace, and couldn't happen over night. In fact I think when you include state and local governments into the mix a very large percentage of the population works for government. Yes, the government is over bloated, and needs to be seriously down sized, but it's not going to be easy.

Toss them out in the streets to starve.  While some of them may have skills useful in a free market, most of them don't deserve to swim in the human gene pool.


You understand that there are not 2 million politicians working for the Federal Government don't you? These are regular people like you and me!

Let's follow your logic for a second. 2 million people become unemployed. 2 million people now no longer have income to spend in our economy. Hmmm...

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lloydbob1

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Re: XVI Amendment
« Reply #46 on: October 25, 2006, 02:56:21 pm »

They can try to find employment from the net taxpayers who  get to keep the funds these people are paid from.
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maxxoccupancy

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Re: XVI Amendment
« Reply #47 on: October 25, 2006, 03:43:31 pm »

One rule of classical economics: When people are allowed to keep more of what they earn, they spend, save, invest, or give it away.  There are an estimated 18 million people working of federal jobs, subsidies, or grants, doing comparatively little for the economy.  Good economic policy means moving people from less productive activities (sitting in a government office pushing forms) to productive activities like those in the private sector.

Historically, all of the great economic booms (20's, 40's, 50's, early 60's, 80's, late 90's) have been accompanied by slower spending growth and/or tax rate reductions.

--Max
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"The Free State Project is an agreement among 20,000 pro-liberty activists to move to New Hampshire, where they will exert the fullest practical effort toward the creation of a society in which the maximum role of government is the protection of life, liberty, and property."

maxxoccupancy

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Re: XVI Amendment
« Reply #48 on: October 25, 2006, 03:48:14 pm »

To make something like this win-win for everybody, we could offer federal, state, and municipal employees (who aren't immediately necessary, a departure bonus, early retirement, unlimited sabatical, or some other offer of pay to leave their job.  This would save money and encourage a reduction in bureaucracy at all levels.

The problem is that the public sector unions maintain their political clout by keeping large numbers of people on the federal payroll.  We are literally being made to pay 18 million people to not work--just to pay dues into the civil service/transit/teachers/ fire fighters unions etc.

--Max
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If you are interested in putting together an IT-creative firm to help provide jobs for liberty folks in the future, send me a Personal Message.
"The Free State Project is an agreement among 20,000 pro-liberty activists to move to New Hampshire, where they will exert the fullest practical effort toward the creation of a society in which the maximum role of government is the protection of life, liberty, and property."

RalphBorsodi

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Re: XVI Amendment
« Reply #49 on: October 25, 2006, 05:15:41 pm »

Quote
One rule of classical economics: When people are allowed to keep more of what they earn, they spend, save, invest, or give it away.

The original classical liberals (the "laissez-faire" French Physiocrats) tax plan was the collection of land rent (called l'impot unique) and so was the tax plan under the articles of confederation because the founders were concerned with the concentration of power that land ownership brought via government granted privilege.

http://savingcommunities.org/foundersplan/whyfounders.html

excerpt:

Why America's Founders Wanted A Property Tax on Land Value, And NOT a Sales Tax!


Why a Land Value Tax?
Land for ordinary citizens

William Penn wanted to keep aristocrats from grabbing up land as they had in Europe. He declared Pennsylvania a "commonwealth" where each landholder would pay a modest rent that "would put an end to taxes, leave not a beggar, and make the greatest bank for national trade." The first tax in Pennsylvania was a land value tax.

Thomas Jefferson also saw that land monopoly made ordinary Europeans poor, while cheap land made Americans rich. He also proposed taxes on real estate to prevent land grabbers from driving land prices up.
Keeping taxing power local

Under the Articles of Confederation, the federal government taxed each state on its land value. Each state would tax each county, and citizens would never have to deal with state or federal tax collectors. Our founders did not trust strong central governments. They believed that people govern their own communities better than powerful states can govern them.
A stipend for senior citizens

Tom Paine proposed to give each citizen over 50 an annual stipend from land value tax for the rest of his life. Paine' proposal was the first (and probably the best) social security proposal.


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Ward Griffiths

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Re: XVI Amendment
« Reply #50 on: October 26, 2006, 08:30:59 am »


The Federal Government is the largest employer in the country with around 2 million employees. That's a lot of jobs to replace, and couldn't happen over night. In fact I think when you include state and local governments into the mix a very large percentage of the population works for government. Yes, the government is over bloated, and needs to be seriously down sized, but it's not going to be easy.

Toss them out in the streets to starve.  While some of them may have skills useful in a free market, most of them don't deserve to swim in the human gene pool.


You understand that there are not 2 million politicians working for the Federal Government don't you? These are regular people like you and me!

They may be like you, they are not like me.  I don't get my income from tax money.  Politicians or bureaucrats or soldiers or police, makes no difference.  They are feeding their families with money stolen from other people at gunpoint.  Theft is theft.  I didn't hire any of these people to work for me.
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SeanSchade

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Re: XVI Amendment
« Reply #51 on: October 26, 2006, 02:07:02 pm »


You understand that there are not 2 million politicians working for the Federal Government don't you? These are regular people like you and me!

They may be like you, they are not like me.  I don't get my income from tax money.  Politicians or bureaucrats or soldiers or police, makes no difference.  They are feeding their families with money stolen from other people at gunpoint.  Theft is theft.  I didn't hire any of these people to work for me.

I'm sure the majority of those people see their jobs just like you see yours...a job and a way to earn income.

I guess you blame FDR for our huge government? He did put into motion what you see today through his New Deal by putting the government in control of the economy by offering jobs and welfare to the citizens. Along with WW2 it did bring us out of The Great Depression.

So here's the question of the day. How do you Systematically reduce the size of the government in a manner that won't cause an economic collapse, and reduce the populations dependency on government jobs? :)
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Ward Griffiths

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Re: XVI Amendment
« Reply #52 on: October 26, 2006, 02:59:18 pm »


I'm sure the majority of those people see their jobs just like you see yours...a job and a way to earn income.

I guess you blame FDR for our huge government? He did put into motion what you see today through his New Deal by putting the government in control of the economy by offering jobs and welfare to the citizens. Along with WW2 it did bring us out of The Great Depression.

So here's the question of the day. How do you Systematically reduce the size of the government in a manner that won't cause an economic collapse, and reduce the populations dependency on government jobs? :)

What part of "Toss them out on the streets to starve" did you misunderstand?  Those with government jobs are parasites, pure and simple.

And without government leeching away most of the productive effort of the population of this country, it would be the biggest economic boom in history.

No, I don't blame FDR.  He just continued what Lincoln started.

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Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.  (Denis Diderot)

lloydbob1

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Re: XVI Amendment
« Reply #53 on: October 26, 2006, 03:12:27 pm »

What Economic Collapse?  30% of the GDP returning to the people is not an economic disaster!  [marthastewartvoice] "Its a good thing' [/marthastewartvoice]
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SeanSchade

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Re: XVI Amendment
« Reply #54 on: October 26, 2006, 03:16:04 pm »

What part of "Toss them out on the streets to starve" did you misunderstand?  Those with government jobs are parasites, pure and simple.

And without government leeching away most of the productive effort of the population of this country, it would be the biggest economic boom in history.

Please explain how a loss of 16 million jobs would contribute to the biggest economic boom in history?  ???

Surely you understand the most basic of economic concepts, or are you just not concerned with the collapse of our society?
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SeanSchade

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Re: XVI Amendment
« Reply #55 on: October 26, 2006, 03:20:11 pm »

What Economic Collapse?  30% of the GDP returning to the people is not an economic disaster!  [marthastewartvoice] "Its a good thing' [/marthastewartvoice]

There is a cause and effect happening here. You don't think there will be any consequences of what you are proposing? Our economy is a fragile creature subject to the influences of many sources.
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lloydbob1

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Re: XVI Amendment
« Reply #56 on: October 26, 2006, 05:24:38 pm »

Some fallout
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Ward Griffiths

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Re: XVI Amendment
« Reply #57 on: October 27, 2006, 11:53:25 am »

There is a cause and effect happening here. You don't think there will be any consequences of what you are proposing? Our economy is a fragile creature subject to the influences of many sources.
The single biggest influence is government.  Getting that vampire off of the jugular would be a major improvement.  Like I said already, I don't give a damn about the effects on government workers -- let them get real jobs or let them starve.
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Dreepa

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Re: XVI Amendment
« Reply #58 on: October 27, 2006, 04:50:44 pm »



So here's the question of the day. How do you Systematically reduce the size of the government in a manner that won't cause an economic collapse, and reduce the populations dependency on government jobs? :)

Ok
Year one Cut the Dept of Agriculture in 1/2, Cut $1B from Defense budget. Reduce the number of recruits needed for the military.
Cut Dept of Education in 1/2
Year two  Cut Dept of HUD in 1/2, etc etc etc

Do it is slow cuts.  That way there are huge upheavels and the job market can slowly handle the surplus.
It may take 20 years but .... that is better than it is now.
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RalphBorsodi

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Re: XVI Amendment
« Reply #59 on: October 28, 2006, 05:34:27 am »


You understand that there are not 2 million politicians working for the Federal Government don't you? These are regular people like you and me!

They may be like you, they are not like me.  I don't get my income from tax money.  Politicians or bureaucrats or soldiers or police, makes no difference.  They are feeding their families with money stolen from other people at gunpoint.  Theft is theft.  I didn't hire any of these people to work for me.

I'm sure the majority of those people see their jobs just like you see yours...a job and a way to earn income.

I guess you blame FDR for our huge government? He did put into motion what you see today through his New Deal by putting the government in control of the economy by offering jobs and welfare to the citizens. Along with WW2 it did bring us out of The Great Depression.


the FDR phenomena was the result of massive over accumulation that had occured in the late 19th century from state intervention in the market place followed by the cycle of under-consumption & under accumulation. It was nothing more than further state interventions that had successively been ratcheted up since that time. See the mutualist Kevin Carson's work in this area.

http://mutualist.org/id87.html

excerpt:
This is potentially catastrophic for the survival of capitalism. Capitalism, paradoxically, requires constant new accumulation, even when it suffers the consequences of past over-accumulation. One temporary solution to over-accumulation is new investment; the latter is essential to keep previously accumulated capital profitable. As Marx pointed out in Volume Three of Capital, the falling rate of profit due to over-accumulation can be offset by increasing the productivity of labor (i.e., the rate of "relative surplus value"). This is accomplished by new investment in improved processes. To paraphrase Al Smith, the solution to the crisis of over-accumulation is more accumulation. The economy is balanced on pinpoint, as in a Ponzi scheme, with further subsidized accumulation necessary to render existing over-accumulated capital profitable. And each such new wave of accumulation, to be profitable, will itself require still further accumulation. So statist solutions to over-accumulation directly impede the further accumulation necessary to keep old investments profitable.

The state may also respond by eating up surplus capital with unproductive outlets like military spending; but this, too, reduces the rate of accumulation which, paradoxically, is necessary to solve the problems of previous over-accumulation.


http://mutualist.org/id88.html

excerpt:
The levels of state expenditure necessary to underwrite the operating costs of capital and render investment productive create a fiscal crisis, parallel to the crisis of accumulation.

Large-scale state capitalist intervention, generally identified with Whigs and Republicans in the mid-nineteenth century, led to a centralization of the economy in the hands of large producers. This system was inherently unstable, and required still further state intervention to solve its contradictions. The result was the full-blown state capitalism of the twentieth century, in which the state played a direct role in subsidizing and cartelizing the corporate economy. Despite such intervention, though, state capitalism was still unstable. As regulatory cartelization advanced from the "Progressive" era on, the problems of overproduction and surplus capital were further intensified by the forces described by Stromberg in the previous two chapters, with the state resorting to ever greater, snowballing foreign expansionism and domestic corporatism to solve them. They eventually led to New Deal corporate state, to a world war in which the U.S. was established (in Samuel Huntington’s words) as "hegemonic power in a system of world order," and an almost totally militarized high tech economy.

A positive rate of profit, under twentieth century state capitalism, was possible only because the state underwrote so much of the cost of reproduction of constant and variable capital, and undertook "social investment" which increased the efficiency of labor and capital and consequently the rate of profit on capital.3 And monopoly capital's demands on the state are not stable over time, but steadily increase

Quote
So here's the question of the day. How do you Systematically reduce the size of the government in a manner that won't cause an economic collapse, and reduce the populations dependency on government jobs? :)

see Jason's talk at the last PorcFest called "The Cannae Tactic"...

http://freestateproject.org/about/essay_archive/cannae_tactic
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