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[freedomroad]

Everyone knows about the federal minimum wage law.  Some cites also have minimum wage laws.  All libertarian economists are against minimum wage laws.  As bad as minimum wage laws are there is something worse.  That something is the living wage law.  Living wage laws inflate wages well above their market level (up to 2.5 times the federal minimum wage.) This practice punishes the city's residents, the state's citizens, and all Americans to a lesser extent.  

The Living wage laws are sweeping the nation.  They started in 1994 near DE, in Baltimore.  They have since spread to liberal centers all over the country.  They go from Boston to Motor city, from L.A. to Missoula, and from CT to Denver.  Dozens upon dozens of cities are creating these laws. Some of these laws even mandate inflated wages for non-profit workers.  Living wage laws are usually pushed by unions, greens, and socialists.

Living wage laws have been banned in Utah (near WY, ID.)

Areas near FSP that have passed living wage laws, FSP states listed WORST to BEST:
BAD = MT - Missoula and Bozeman in state. This is a very bad sign for MT.  These are typical MT cities.
BAD = VT - Burlington in state, also Boston, Cambridge, Hartford, New Haven, Buffalo, VT also has a statewide proposal
DE - none in state, Baltimore and Montgomery County of MD, Jersey City, NYC (When will Willington fall?)
SD - none in state, Omaha, Minneapolis, St. Paul, Des Moines (Is Sioux Falls next?)
NH - none in state, Boston, Cambridge, Hartford, New Haven
WY - none in state, Denver, Boulder
ND - none in state, Minneapolis, St. Paul
ME - none in state, Boston
GOOD = AK - none in state
GOOD = ID - none in state

More information:
http://www.epionline.org/livingwage/index.cfm
http://www.ncpa.org/hotlines/min/pd111999b.html
http://www.freep.com/money/business/wage21_20021121.htm

[Zxcv]

Ugh, when will it ever stop? No wonder the economy is going down the crapper.

Yet another reason to stay away from states with big cities.

It's not an example of "living wage", but Oregon just passed (by initiative) the highest minimum wage law in the country, with automatic indexing. These sorts of things have a lot of appeal to voters; I guess they can't see the danger.

When we get to Wyoming   we will have to follow Utah's lead, but ban both minimum and living wage laws.

[freedomroad]

It's not an example of "living wage", but Oregon just passed (by initiative) the highest minimum wage law in the country, with automatic indexing. These sorts of things have a lot of appeal to voters; I guess they can't see the danger.

Are you saying the the state of Oregon has its own minimum wage and that this is higher than the national minimum wage?  That is crazy!  I never thought states would pass such reckless laws.

[Zxcv]

They sure do. A lot of states have this.

http://www.oraflcio.unions-america.com/Labor_2002/measure_25.htm
http://www.cascadepolicy.org/pdf/labor/2002_27.pdf
http://www.sos.state.or.us/elections/nov52002/guide/measures/m25.htm

The results, passed 51% to 49%
http://www.kgw.com/sharedcontent/NWelections/kgw/race4025.htm

This is better than in past years. Some people are finally getting a clue, but still not enough...

[freedomroad]

FSP state minimum wage laws:
States with minimum wage same as federal ($5.15):
ID, WY, MT, NH, SD, ND

States with minimum wage laws higher than the federal:
These are states with socialist leanings

VT - $6.25
DE - $6.15 (effective 1/1/03)
ME - $6.25 (effective 1/1/03)
AK - $7.15 (effective 1/1/03)

Other states with minimum wage laws higher than the federal:
All 3 West Coast states have state minimum wage laws.  Both OR and WA border ID. HI and all Northeastern states except NH have these laws.

States that have at least 1 city with a 'living wage' and have a state minimum wage law:
VT

This data helps prove the case that the Northeast is creeping into socialism (the worst evil) while VT is running towards socialism.

Some states have no minimum wage laws or laws lower than the federal level.
None:
AZ, TN, SC, MS, AL, FL, LA (Mostly Southern states)
Lower than federal:
KS, NM, OH

Source:
http://www.dol.gov/esa/minwage/america.htm

[freedomroad]

I agree that the "living wage" laws are a problem.  They all seem to want 12.00 an hour for the most menial job.  These groups are supported by the big labor unions, of course.  However, you seem to single out Vermont on your list, but Alaska has the higher wage.  You say that Vermont is "running" towards socialism, but didn't they just elect a Republican governor?

I singled out VT because it has a city with a 'living wage' (Burlington), there is a push by some to make a state 'living wage', and it has a state minimum wage.  That is three major negative factors that were talked about in the thread.  However, no other state talked about in the thread had even two negitive factors, yet alone three.

VT elected a Republican because the Democrates in VT still exsist to some extent.  The socialist have more political power than the Dems but they still have not completely replaced the Dems.  The socialists did not want the Dems to run a can. for Governor because they know that the election might be taken by the Republicans.  The Dems refused to back down and so the socialist-liberal vote was split and the Republicans won.  However, the Dems are learning and slowly they are not running against the socialists and the socialists beat the Republicans, hands down.


 

I would also kill the talk about killing the Fed minimum wage.  First, it won't happen.  Second, there is no quicker way to be branded an A-Hole in whatever state you end up in.  You have to choose your battles.  I understand most arguments against it, McDonalds pays 6.50/hr in my town and min wage is 5.15/hr.  However, the masses see it as protection from exploitation.  This isn't a huge issue because most earn more than minimum wage, anyway.

I agree.  In fact I will try not to talk about any national issues that the state cannot control, anymore.  That means I will not talk about total drug legalization.  I have two reasons.  First, it won't happen.  Second, there is no quicker way to scare voters and to be branded crazy and evil.  You have to choose your battles.  I understand the issues but I will not talk about it because talking about it only hurts the FSP.

As you may have guessed by now, I favor Vermont.  I feel it has the best chances for success.  Most of the posters pushing for the West just sound like good ol' Republicans to me(even though Vermont seems to be the only state that understands the 2nd amendment).  Just my 2 cents, I'll b***h more later.

I highly recommend you do not use curse words.  That is one of the fastest ways to get voters to ignore you and think you are a fringe rebel that will make their kids bad.

BTW -Can a state pay less than the Fed min wage?  I thought that was "the floor".

Yes, I think so.  The federal minimum wage does not cover all workers.  It covers 'almost all' workers but there are built in holes.  Some states know this and they have written there laws to fill these holes.

Now I will taunt you with a Vermont photo.

Racer X

The picture is great.  I have been to VT several times and have family in VT.  I have been all up and down the lake.  I have been to the capital, Burlington, South Burlington, and a couple other towns.  I have been to the Green Mts and the N.Y. A. Mts.  I've been to the socialist cause supporting Ben and Jerry ice cream factory.  I have seen the city/communial farms.  Burlington is VERY COLD AND SNOWY.  If someone thinks the weather is bad in Boston or Denver they have never experinced a Burlington winter.  Burlington can get more than 5 ft of snow at one time.  Burlington is freezing cold for much or the year.  Certainly, if I was sensitive to cold or do not love shovling ft or snow I would stay away at all costs.  Have you ever experinced a Burlington winter?

On a side note, traffic is usually not bad in Burlington.  Burlington acts like the small town it is even if the MSA (somehow) has around 160,000 people.

[Zxcv]

The fed minimum wage we can do nothing about, agreed (except perhaps note that it is unconstitutional). But in any case it should be one of our later battles.

However I don't think we should avoid the minimum wage/living wage issue altogether. The 49-51 vote, even in Oregon, shows that it is not a "fringe" issue.

I look at it as one of those bellweather items that we can use to discover the mentality in the states. We really need to run away from states that these laws are prevalent in (especially living wage), because it means the people there are even more than usual inclined to accept fatuous arguments from rent-seeking interest groups, and to accept typical nanny-state behavior. It's awful hard to swim upstream against such a current of thought.

We need Vermont to stay socialist, because we need the example of what socialism does to a state, just as much as we need the example of what freedom does for a state (what the FSP is doing). Sorry to say this, but I guess Vermonters need to move. Like most of the rest of us...

[SandyPrice]

Another problem that we should look into is the "Right to Work" category of each state.  When the state grants a right to work it means one can work in a union position without joining the union.  Arizona has this and we all love it.  This can be as important as the minimum wage.

I noticed that those lovely photos were not taken in the winter time.  

When my kids bought their home in Maryland I used to get pictures every week on what they were doing with their lovely back yard.  They suddendly stopped including the photos in their emails.  My daughter said they were having a problem with their grass.   Ahem, it was covered in ice and snow.  Humbug!

[freedomroad]

Another problem that we should look into is the "Right to Work" category of each state.  When the state grants a right to work it means one can work in a union position without joining the union.  Arizona has this and we all love it.  This can be as important as the minimum wage.

I covered this in a past thread.
Rankings for top of All 50 states for Freedom (personal and economic)
http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=967


Right to work states
VA, NC, SC, GA, FL, AL, MS, TN, LA, AR, OK, TX, KS, NE, IA, SD, ND, WY, ID, UT, AZ, NV

Out of the FSP states that leaves (Right to work states):
SD, ND, WY, and ID

To compare the FSP states for minimum wage, living wage, and right to work:

States with a minimum wage NOT higher than the federal:
MT, ID, WY, ND, SD, NH

States WITHOUT any city having a 'living wage':
ID, WY, NH, DE, AK, SD, ND, ME

Right to work states:
SD, ND, WY, ID

With 1 point for each time a states is listed out of a possible 3 points.

Total:
1. WY, ND, SD, ID with 3 points
2. NH with 2 points
3. MT, DE, AK, ME with 1 point
4. VT with 0 points

Summary:  Comparing the 10 states for all 3 factors shows that WY, ND, SD, and ID are more enployment friendly.  MT, DE, AK, and ME are more against workers and companies than most of the other states.  VT, looks even more socialist then before.

[Zxcv]

Yeehah! My 3 favorite states, Wyoming, Idaho and South Dakota are on top!  

Guess where rich liberal Boulderites are buying land?  Wyoming.  They're not fleeing socialism, they're chasing cheap land.

Rich left-liberal yuppies seem to be coming out of the woodwork everywhere (although a little less now that the dot-coms have crashed    ). I guess what we'll have to do is make the most socialist of them feel less welcome. Maybe we should pass a mandatory open carry law.  

[Hank]

1. WY, ND, SD, ID with 3 points

The rest of 'em are even lower.

Enough said?