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[jeanius]

As most of you know, FSP's key goal is to recruit.  We want to find people interested in liberty, have them meet us, learn about the FSP and perhaps, if we're lucky, participate in our endeavor.  Not everyone has a good reaction to our forum.  It can be a difficult place, on occasion, to share ideas, ask questions, etc.  Some people have been scared off with the more "free for all with some limitations" rule for the forum as a whole.  So, we have created this area where new people can safely enter and be welcomed and not have to do "battle" right off the bat.    We may even draw in a few "old" participants who are uncomfortable with our "old" forum.  Let's see if we can show visitors our best behavior, eh? 

Jean

[jeanius]

At 46, Shorty, I don't qualify for kindergarten.  I have spent many of my adult years working in stressful work environments and then switched to child rearing and home educating which is also a stressful work environment.  I'm an adult, well educated, and qualify for post-graduate type discussions.  However, that doesn't mean I'm interested in some of the caustic and fiery conflicts that occur on our forum.  I would actually say that some of those qualify more as "kindergarten" level than this area.  However, how about we agree to live and let live?  You don't have to come here and I won't go there and we can each have the environment we want.  Eh?  Sort of libertarianism in action.

Jean

[unplugged]

Jean,

I don't know what this "Shorty" wrote to you, but I am sorry that you had to write a 'rebuttal' response to someone regarding this new forum.  We all have the right to say, think, and write what we want, but I think some people take that as a license to be rude and irresponsible with their words.  There are some forums out here that look interesting, but upon review are rife with sometimes spiteful posts between some of the members.  It almost seems as some of these members have taken over these areas, devouring any 'outsider' who dares to enter and post a reply.  It is a definite turn-off to see some of these posts and they surely do not encourage many new people to join in and feel a part of the bigger movement.  Frankly, if I had not seen the Libertarian Women forum I would have had no interest in becoming a member, based on the other forums I had looked at on this site.  I do not wish to infringe on anyone's right to their thoughts and opinions, but I think it is tacky for someone to come to this forum and start that nitpicking that goes on in some of the other forums. 

That being said, good luck to you with this new endeavour, Jean!  I hope to read some good posts here.

Sandra

[jeanius]

Thanks Sandra!  And I'm glad you found us here.  Yes, sometimes conversations in our forum get out of hand and if we're scaring off folks who might otherwise be interested in us that's a bad thing.  Freedom of speech is something we all value and a good balance can be hard to achieve.  (Certainly I can argue that freedom of speech has other goals than bickering, but ...   )  So, I'm grateful to our head of IT, Adam Rick, for letting me start this section and I hope we have many, many informative, enlightening, engaging and *civilized* conversations.  I look forward to them!

Jean

[Brien]

Jean:  I don't see this forum, this entire site, as anything different than I have seen in other forums on other sites.   People will always disagree and there will always be ignorant people who become rude and nasty to make their points.  I think it is human nature.  They don't have the creativity to argue sensibly or logically.  Best thing one can do when you run across these types is to ignore them.  Let them talk to themselves.  If no one pays attention to them, they will go away.  Trust me on this one.  I have seen it before.

However, that said, there is usually someone willing to "egg on" the rude and nasty poster.  Perhaps they think it is their mission in life to change others.  But I don't think one can ever change someone from acting in bad taste to being a considerate and interested participant in a civil forum looking to promote ideas, logic, and truth.  I have seen people presented with "facts" and they still will deny the truth of them.   Sometimes you just can't change another's way of thinking because they are narrow minded to begin with.  Change comes from within.

Good luck in your forum and I'll drop by from time to time to see how things are going here.

[unplugged]

In a brief response to Brien's post, I belong to another forum where the members actually ARE civil and respectful in all of the areas in the forum.  I do get the feeling, however, that civility is not the norm in many forums.  As for being "different", I re-read your first post here, Jean, and I don't see where you said that this forum was "different".  I do see it as a place where people can come to get their thoughts and questions out in a respectful place.  So, maybe in that respect, this forum IS different... :)  I liked reading Brien's thoughts and appreciate seeing them here.   Brien, I hope you stop by often...

The thing about letting the rude people rant on and just ignoring them is that they take up space in an area they really care nothing about.  While they have the right to post what they want, in this forum, Jean, you have the right to move their posts to a more suitable forum, where their posts can be better appreciated and enjoyed.  Not everyone who posts on this message board seems to be concerned with getting a message out about FSP and/or things related.  Too much nitpicking junior high antics tends to keep some folks away who not only may be interested in the 'cause', but who also may have ways to better support it and help more widely spread the message about the FSP.  Who wants to be part of something whose message, at least as perceived on some of these message forum areas, is one of 'if you disagree with us we will pick on you until you pick up your pencil box and go home'?  :( 

I am hoping that this forum will encourage those with thoughts and ideas about freedom and liberty to write in and participate in an open and respectful dialogue.

Sandra

[jeanius]

Thanks Brien and Sandra,

I agree Brien that folks behavior on forums is mostly something we just need to accept.  They come, they can be rude, they can be harsh, etc.  But like Sandy, I've had positive experiences with forums too.  I think raising the bar a bit will keep conversation more productive and informative, at least in this section, and that will provide a benefit to visitors here. 

I use myself as a barometer of sorts.  After a couple of brief forays into the state debate areas I quit visiting them.  Folks were *very* passionate on that topic.  I was looking for information, for calm discussion.  I didn't find it there and so did not return.  I'm a strong person and I know how to hold my own in a heated exchange.  But, I don't always want an observation or comment I make to be treated as an attack.  I think getting a calm response/question/observation in return is more helpful to me.   

We have new people come to the forum with some regularity.  Those folks in particular deserve a more careful welcoming.  And folks like me would like a safer place for conversation all the time.  It doesn't mean we won't disagree, but perhaps we will disagree in more productive ways. 

Jean

[Brien]

Hi Jean:  Well I just received my first insult from a few "uninformed" regulars.  Go to the forum for "Moving.." and see the tread on the "Van".  One member commented that he would "gag" on my suggestion and another simply said:"What do expect, he is not one of us."

Now I have been a libertarian for many, many, years.   Even before it was fashionable for some.

Theses two "member" were not only uninformed on the issue but seemed bent upon ridicule as well.  I have thick skin and my response is laden with facts, not speculation.  It always amazes me how some "members" want to dismantle everything in sight but have no reasonable replacements.

Members such as these will only force prospective members to turn away with disdain.  These people are doing more harm than good for the movement.  It is a shame.

[Russell Kanning]

Hi Jean:  Well I just received my first insult from a few "uniformed" regulars. 

Theses two "member" were not only uniformed on the issue but seemed bent upon ridicule as well.  I have thick skin and my response is laden with facts, not speculation.  It always amazes me how some "members" want to dismantle everything in sight but have no reasonable replacements.

Members such as these will only force prospective members to turn away with disdain.  These people are doing more harm than good for the movement.  It is a shame.

I don't have a uniform.....sometimes I am uninformed
I am not a member ..... but a participant
I don't have thick skin like yours...... but I don't run to Jean for protection.
I think you want to control others.....and I oppose you

[Brien]

Hi Jean:  Well I just received my first insult from a few "uniformed" regulars. 

Theses two "member" were not only uniformed on the issue but seemed bent upon ridicule as well.  I have thick skin and my response is laden with facts, not speculation.  It always amazes me how some "members" want to dismantle everything in sight but have no reasonable replacements.

Members such as these will only force prospective members to turn away with disdain.  These people are doing more harm than good for the movement.  It is a shame.

I don't have a uniform.....sometimes I am uninformed

I am not a member ..... but a participant
I don't have thick skin like yours...... but I don't run to Jean for protection.
I think you want to control others.....and I oppose you

Well this really proves my point about mean spirited people who use ridicule to cover their ignorance.

I have no such desire to control others.  Another example of making yourself look foolish.

Sometimes I misspell words, don't you? Do you not like people in uniforms? 

I don't seek protection from anyone.  It seems to me that Jean started her forum to illustrate the likes of your posts.

You split hairs over semantics because you have nothing but rhetoric to add.  Where are your solutions, ideas, and creative statements?  I must have missed them.

You oppose me because you don't know me and I have a feeling you are devoid of solutions and creative ideas to solve the problems of government Diplodocus.  You have rhetoric and I have yet to see any real ideas that answer my posts. 

I oppose people who want to tear down society but offer no solutions to that which they want to destroy.  Are you one of them?  So far I haven't seen anything in answers to my posts that will convince me otherwise.

[jeanius]

I'm not protecting anyone here Russell and you know it.  I would like to have an environment here for people who want to have rational discussion and avoid comments and reactions such as those described by Brien.  Those comments were *not* helpful. 

Would you really want someone, who is perhaps more timid than you, to be scared away from our forum?  Is being a bit more shy or a bit less inclined to want to do battle constantly mean we can't learn more about being libertarian or having a free society?  I have *not* lobbied for the forum as a whole to be more restricted, though I think a case could be made for that.  I have asked for this *section*.  Please, do us all the courtesy of not ridiculing or otherwise denigrating this area some of us value.  I'm asking nicely ... please respect our desire for civilized communication.

Jean

[Brien]

I'm not protecting anyone here Russell and you know it.  I would like to have an environment here for people who want to have rational discussion and avoid comments and reactions such as those described by Brien.  Those comments were *not* helpful. 

Would you really want someone, who is perhaps more timid than you, to be scared away from our forum?  Is being a bit more shy or a bit less inclined to want to do battle constantly mean we can't learn more about being libertarian or having a free society?  I have *not* lobbied for the forum as a whole to be more restricted, though I think a case could be made for that.  I have asked for this *section*.  Please, do us all the courtesy of not ridiculing or otherwise denigrating this area some of us value.  I'm asking nicely ... please respect our desire for civilized communication.

Jean

Jean:  I think you are a voice of reason in what can sometimes be misunderstood assumptions made by folks who sometimes don't even realize what they are doing.  But then again, maybe they do, but I will always give someone the proverbial benefit of the doubt.

I think the most important thing we can do here is discuss ideas, solutions and reforms which can generate enthusiasm so we can help change what I call government Diplodocus.  I don't think there is any room for negativity because that feeds upon itself and tends to grow like a fire out of control.  It's like someone throws a punch and then someone else returns that blow, and pretty soon there is a brawl going on.  What a waste of valuable time.  I have abandoned other forums just for such behavior.  People were more interested in arguing, name calling, and put downs, than discussing ideas that may lead to some solutions to the problems in modern society today.

Once again, thank you for demonstrating reason above emotion.

[jeanius]

Hey Brien,

I'm sorry you had trouble elsewhere in the forum.  I read the thread you referred to.  You did touch on one of the hot buttons that can cause a reaction.  Many of our participants are on the anarchist end of the spectrum.  Many are on the "limited government" side.  The anarchist side doesn't have much (well, maybe not *any*) tolerance of even limited government.  They will fly up in arms immediately about any state restrictions/limitations, etc.  That's the exciting and challenging aspect of creating a free society.  I *really* liked what you said about privatizing.  I, personally, think that's the best end solution.  I don't know if you've read Stossel's book, "Give Me a Break:  How I Exposed Hucksters, Cheats, and Scam Artists and Became the Scourge of the Liberal Media ...".  In this book Stossel brings up Underwriter Laboratories (UL) as an example.  They've tested and approved electrical devices for ages .. and well too.  I've used Consumer Reports fairly regularly for purchases.  Anyway, I don't want to get too far off topic but my point is that some folks write before thinking and don't always read carefully.  And also folks are very passionate about their viewpoints.  I do expect that such conversations can be civilly conducted here is a way that allows us to explore different angles of topics.

Jean

[jeanius]

Thanks Brien.  Arguing amonst ourselves and some of the less productive communications *are* a waste of time.  We have so much work to do. 

Jean

[Brien]

Thanks Brien.  Arguing amonst ourselves and some of the less productive communications *are* a waste of time.  We have so much work to do. 

Jean

You're welcome Jean.  I think you touched on a very important aspect of this forum when you wrote that some posters will surely scare timid folks away with some of their posts.  I have already seen the mistrust of my friend Russ in some of his posts.  I don't wish to single him out but he did attack me and made up assumptions and attributed them to my writing.  I think this kind of behavior undermines the real work that needs to be done.  It is reprehensible.  This is all I will write concerning this poster.

I believe in ideas.  I do NOT believe in trying to disparage others through any means.  If someone has an idea, then we should discuss it.  We should not ridicule those who may not have all of the facts or see things in a different light than others.  Perhaps we should try and get more ideas out in the forum so those who are open minded can consider those ideas and perhaps change their own minds if they can see things in a different light than they did previously.  This is the way we can move forward.

I get the idea here that some out in the forums are self appointed "leaders" who think they are more more important than others.  Welcome to the Animal Farm where everyone is equal but some are more equal than others.  Well that, of course, doesn't wash with me.

I may be new here recently but I have followed this forum for a long time.  I have been a Party member and I have had my writing published in the Libertarian News.  I am an old friend of Libertarianism and it seems to me that there are some people here that, intentional or not, will certainly alienate newcomers who don't think or support exactly like some "participants" wish them to think.  I agree they will do more harm than good and it may be prudent for everyone to reconsider their intentions and actions here on this FSP forum.  It is wise to be vigilant against those who wish to stifle ideas, no matter what they are, because that is the true enemy of Liberty.

I have posted my vision of Liberty and my role in the FSP in the FSP General Forum under the "FSP as bus."
Perhaps I will cut and paste it here.  I'll be right back.  It reads as follows.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Man o man all of this arguing and name calling.  It can be downright depressing and confusing.  I am just one person and was a dues paying member of the Libertarian Party until I found all they did was badger me for more money almost weekly in my mail.  No different than any other charitable organization I concluded.  But this doesn't change my Libertarian Ideology.  It just eliminated annoying mailings.

This FSP, to me, means making a commitment to move to NH for the purpose of being more free than I am now in Connecticut.  It doesn't mean I have to band together with other people to move government in any one direction.  If that is your vision, then I applaud your zeal.  I don't disagree with the concept.  I just won't let it direct my course in life.  Wherever I move in NH, I will make a difference as only one person can in this life. I will vote my Libertarian principles regardless of where I live.  I just think my votes will be more effective in NH.  I am an independent businessman who runs a very successful business but I don't deal with the general public.  I have a niche and it works very well for me.  It frees me up to live anywhere I want.  I lived in the Upper Valley near Lebanon NH for over 10 years.  My kids are NH natives.  I am not.  But what does this matter anyway?  Except that when I move back to NH, I will be more familiar with the state than others who never lived there at all.  I will construct my own reality in liberty and not be constrained by having to find a job or commute to work.

This freedom is all very personal.  I will move where I want and when I want.  It doesn't matter to me who moves where and why.  I feel I will choose the best town for my situation and deal with it from there.  I want small and to be left alone.  If I want to join some organization, then I will do that when I am ready.

The real change comes in the ballot box.  Whomever said that the town meeting was the best place to get things done was correct.  As Tip O'Neil said, "All politics is local."  If I choose a small town like Springfield and run into like minded people, so be it.  If not, I will always vote my conscience without regard to "throwing away" my votes.

I currently sit on the Zoning Board of Appeals in a small Connecticut town.  I know that on the surface this would make most Libertarians sick because they are anti zoning.  But, since zoning isn't going away here anytime soon, where best to apply my Libertarian viewpoints through action.  I have a vote on a board that allows people to do what they wish to do with their own property.  What better way to be a Libertarian activist than to grant variances to those people restricted by the zoning board.  So until the zoning laws and board is abolished, I have a way to effectively undermine the zoning board here in town.    I am promoting the freedom of the property owner to do what he wishes to do with his own property by helping that property owner eliminate obstacles thrown at him by restrictive zoning laws.  Is this not effective Libertarian change with regard to the parameters within which I have to act?

I write this as an example of how we all make our own reality. It is futile to argue over who is a "leader" or more of an "activist" with a better vision of liberty than another.  If one makes a name for themself as a good representative for the shared ideas and ideals of another individual or group, then all well and good.  I don't require these things to carve out my vision of liberty into reality.  I am an individual and will do what I think is best for me based upon information made available to me.

I can't be a cheerleader for anyone or anything except individual liberty.  And if my reality happens to coincide with another's vision of liberty as they carve out their reality, then all well and good.  Two points for the home team.  Until then, I will continue to move along with my personal vision of liberty while seeking a life more free for myself and my family and if it happens to support another's idea of liberty, then progress is probably happening without us even knowing it.


So this is how I explain my role in this whole deal.  I hope it gives whomever reads it some insight into my beliefs of personal liberty and how I can contribute to the FSP in my own way.  Meanwhile, I will continue to contribute ideas where I think they are appropriate.  I thank you for your welcoming attitude.

Brien