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Author Topic: In Search of a Compromise State  (Read 11914 times)

Zxcv

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Re:In Search of a Compromise State
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2002, 12:29:51 pm »

Quote
Delaware is enviably located in the middle of the country;"
Yeah, but what country?  ;)

I don't know where you guys got that climate zone map. It appears to use a different system than the Western Garden Book, which is as far as I know the real authority in the west. See the reviews on this page:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0376038756/ref%3Dnosim/teijn-20/104-2081885-3531159
Here are their zone maps:
http://www.sunset.com/sunset/Sponsors/Garden/sunsetmonrovia_r1/htmlfiles/zone_map2.html#

As to the total population vs voting age population, I did not mean to say they were perfectly redundant, just that they are close enough that if you are going to pick only 3 criteria to look at, you might find another one a little less tied to the other two. In math terms, you've chosen 2 independent variables, not 3. Of course your choice of variables will certainly scramble the list, so I'm not sure how scientific an exercise this is.  ;)

I'm against sending a letter (unless convinced otherwise) to governors, Chamber of Commerce leaders and the like.

Think of it. Every FSP member gets one little vote about what state we go to, but you are giving governors a veto over the choice all of them make (in effect, anyway). Why would you trust a governor, or a chamber spokesperson, with that much power? These may be the last people we should listen to.

I agree we should hope to find a state where we will be welcomed, but that has little to do whether a particular governor welcomes us. We need to find this information, but let's be a little more creative about digging it out.

Actually, I can't think of a reliable way to do it, at the moment, but I'm pretty sure asking the governor ain't it!

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RgnadKzin

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Re:In Search of a Compromise State
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2002, 01:10:41 pm »

I disagree with the premise that we should request "assistance" from the myriad of municipal corporations that masquerade as governments.

I am not in the habit of asking the Beast and its minions for permission to exist.
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Robert H.

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Re:In Search of a Compromise State
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2002, 01:53:12 pm »

I don't know where you guys got that climate zone map. It appears to use a different system than the Western Garden Book, which is as far as I know the real authority in the west.

Here's another climate zone map for the entire country showing roughly the same thing (from a different source):

http://www.mooarhillfarm.com/Climate_Zones/climate_zones.html

redbeard

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Re:In Search of a Compromise State
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2002, 11:07:19 pm »

I have to go with WY. I think the native population is the key to success. If they are put off by 20,00 newbies who don't share their political philosophy it could be disastrous. WY is already a conservative bastion, much more likely to welcome freedom activists. And tough weather is a good thing. It keeps out the riff raff.
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Greggers69

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Re:In Search of a Compromise State
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2002, 11:32:28 pm »

Yes I have to agree with ol redbeard.  I was also looking at the LP home page.  seems to be a good grounded place for everyone and as long as we are freedom lovers and not liberals we will be accepted with graciousness.  Greg ;D
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TedApelt

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Re:In Search of a Compromise State
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2002, 05:46:24 pm »

I lived in one of the "moderate climate zones" of Montana (Billings), and it was FREEZING.  We had several weeks straight of sub zero weather many times, sometimes going to 40 or 50 below zero.  It was so bad that pipes would freeze even with heat tape around them and heavy insulation around the tape, and this was even when they were kept running to prevent freezing (dosen't work).

True, I would move there if this was the one that was chosen, but I would really prefer Delaware.
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Zxcv

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Re:In Search of a Compromise State
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2002, 12:57:55 am »

These places can get cold, but I don't know that they get that cold. Billings had a high of 50 and a low of 33 today.

The average low gets down to 13 degrees F. The record low was -32 F back in 1983:
http://weather.yahoo.com/climo/USMT0031_f.html
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glen

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Re:In Search of a Compromise State
« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2002, 04:00:38 pm »

I am not yet convinced that the relatively high population levels of Idaho will be a barrier to the development of a free state. On the other hand, I am concerned that Wyoming does not offer enough in the way of employment opportunities. On these issues in both states, more facts and strategic thinking are needed.

However, one issue is very clear: the initiative and referendum process is an extremely valuable a tool to have available in the effort to grow a culture of freedom. It is as important as running FSP candidates for office and using the open market to test out alternatives to government power.  

The states with the least restrictive initiative and referendum laws are Idaho and Montana. Unfortunately, Wyoming is one of the states with the most restrictions to this process.

RobertH and Jason have pointed out that if the western FSPers cannot find some a workable compromise the eastern FSPers will win by default.

If Idaho cannot gather enough western support, I am willing to consider Montana as a compromise state.
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JasonPSorens

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Re:In Search of a Compromise State
« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2002, 02:29:06 pm »

Actually, the new voting system makes it unnecessary for regional blocs to agree on compromise states.  In fact, trying to do so can hurt you.
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glen

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Re:In Search of a Compromise State
« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2002, 04:52:32 pm »

Hi Jason

Well, that’s what I get for using the fallacy of appeal to authority.

Is the new voting method posted and useable for a straw vote?
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Zxcv

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Re:In Search of a Compromise State
« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2002, 05:21:49 pm »

glen, I live in the state that uses Initiative and Referendum more than any other (Oregon), and I cannot share your enthusiasm for it, for these reasons:

1) As many (if not more) statist measures get on the ballot as pro-freedom ones.

2) When statist measures pass, they usually have smooth sailing. When pro-freedom ones pass, they are invariably challenged in court and often overturned.

3) There is a potential for very bad measures to pass. One example is what happened in Florida recently (I'm working from memory here) mandating a certain low ratio of students to teachers in govt. schools. Things like these are very expensive and play havoc with any tax-reduction agenda.

4) At least in Oregon, the requirements for passing a measure modifying the constitution are hardly worse than a simple statutory measure. The result is a state constitution with all sorts of ridiculous warts, gargoyles and complexities in it.

Maybe a more detailed analysis would give a different answer, or maybe the character of the state population would affect the value of the initiative process, but for now I am not convinced it is a plus for us.

I'm interested in somehow putting the veto power in peoples' hands, though. That would be interesting to consider.
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JasonPSorens

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Re:In Search of a Compromise State
« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2002, 06:20:23 pm »

We don't have a straw poll set up yet, though we hope to get one within a couple of weeks.  There is a ranked-ballot calculator which shows you how our method works:
http://www.onr.com/user/honky98/rbvote/calc.html
On this page our method is called "Simpson."
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

TedApelt

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Re:In Search of a Compromise State
« Reply #27 on: December 30, 2002, 01:30:48 am »

glen, I live in the state that uses Initiative and Referendum more than any other (Oregon), and I cannot share your enthusiasm for it, for these reasons:

1) As many (if not more) statist measures get on the ballot as pro-freedom ones.

2) When statist measures pass, they usually have smooth sailing. When pro-freedom ones pass, they are invariably challenged in court and often overturned.

3) There is a potential for very bad measures to pass. One example is what happened in Florida recently (I'm working from memory here) mandating a certain low ratio of students to teachers in govt. schools. Things like these are very expensive and play havoc with any tax-reduction agenda.


Yes, and there was also that stupid train, which was such a bad idea that even the state leglislators were voicing their opposition.

"No new taxes with voter approval" got sunk by the state supreme court - would you believe because of "multiple subjects"???  (The initiative affected all types of taxes, therefore it had multiple subjects!!!)  That was the reason!  I am not making this up!

Ironically, the very same year, another referendum passed that allowed multiple subjects.

On the plus side, we did get Revision 11 through, which allowed all political parties to play by the same rules.

I guess that what I am trying to say is that you get both good and bad with initiatives.  It can get complicated.
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Solitar

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Re:In Search of a Compromise State
« Reply #28 on: January 29, 2003, 02:18:42 am »

Quote
glen, I live in the state that uses Initiative and Referendum more than any other (Oregon), and I cannot share your enthusiasm for it, for these reasons:
1) As many (if not more) statist measures get on the ballot as pro-freedom ones.
2) When statist measures pass, they usually have smooth sailing. When pro-freedom ones pass, they are  invariably challenged in court and often overturned.
Initiatives are what the activists can make of them, and how well they can educate the voters versus having the voters pushed around by the fear mongers and emotional manipulators.

We in Colorado have had both good and bad. We've had good stuff overturned by the courts. We've had good stuff turned down by the voters because of manipulative and downright lying ads by the opposition. We've had bad stuff passed by the voters. If the electorate have the initiative power, hopefully they know enough to use it wisely.
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Zxcv

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Re:In Search of a Compromise State
« Reply #29 on: January 29, 2003, 02:08:57 pm »

I have to question that.

I think the initiative 20 years ago was a good deal; a lot of tax limitation measures got passed. But lately, the courts have gotten a lot more brazen in overturning government-limiting measures, so it's the bad measures that predominate. Unless this court bias issue gets cleaned up, I'm thinking the day of the initiative has passed, at least as a check on government.

There was an article in Liberty Magazine 5 or 10 years ago, I wish I could find it, that likened this to an arms race between the pro- and anti-government crowd. First one side dreams up a tool, then after a while the otherside neutralizes it. It's a great way of understanding what is going on over the long term.
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