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Author Topic: "Sometimes you need a little Big Brother," Sawyer said.  (Read 9290 times)

JonM

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"Sometimes you need a little Big Brother," Sawyer said.
« on: January 23, 2005, 12:16:19 pm »

Belmont rep’s law aimed at seat belt compliance

I was all set to have the subject be something completely different until I read that line.  Sawyer is the incoming president of the police chiefs association.  If EVER there were a quote to rally around, this would be it.

Dave Mincin got the second section presenting the sane point of view.

What we need is a study of how many people would refuse to wear their seatbelt BECAUSE it's the law, who would wear it if it weren't . . . anyone got some clipboards?
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Otosan

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Re: "Sometimes you need a little Big Brother," Sawyer said.
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2005, 01:35:16 pm »

Froom the above article:

Under a secondary law, police officers could only issue tickets to drivers who are not buckled up if they are pulled over for another offense, such as speeding or other traffic violations.

Well that is how they passed the law here, but as of last year, the police can pull you over for not wearing your seat belt.


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JonM

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Re: "Sometimes you need a little Big Brother," Sawyer said.
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2005, 12:21:34 pm »

Some libertarians are fine with the under 18 law, if you are under the assumption that someone under 18 is not capable of making such a decision on his or her own.  There would probably be more support for moving the age of majority in that than repealing it.  There was discussion on this way back pre-state vote, and it tends to come down to whether a child should or should not be "protected" from parents who may not always make the best decisions for their child.  It can get really fun, as that can turn into a what-if quagmire almost instantly.
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Evenstar

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Re: "Sometimes you need a little Big Brother," Sawyer said.
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2005, 02:42:26 pm »

Something struck me... seems to me most laws to "protect the children" have specific ages associated.  Wouldn't it be more logical (and more of a libertarian stand) to have those laws apply onle to unemancipated children?  Looking at history and not setting artificial limits on my children, I find it hard to imagine they'll still be "children" at 18.  Just a thought.
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SteveA

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Re: "Sometimes you need a little Big Brother," Sawyer said.
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2005, 02:55:57 pm »

Something struck me... seems to me most laws to "protect the children" have specific ages associated.  Wouldn't it be more logical (and more of a libertarian stand) to have those laws apply onle to unemancipated children?  Looking at history and not setting artificial limits on my children, I find it hard to imagine they'll still be "children" at 18.  Just a thought.

Sounds like a good direction to head.  There'd still be a need to determine when this happens but I think it's basically something that either parents or the child determine.  (If a child runs away from home, they're effectively declaring themselves emancipated or if a parent gives up their right, though I think in reality it's generally more of a transition where as children increasing excersize freedom to pursue their own desires, parental 'ownership' of a child decreases ... so the the responsibility of the actions of a 14 year old teenager can be shared to an extent between both the parents and the child.  A parent can't instantly claim to be unresponsible for the actions of their children at whim).  Another reason why viewing it too much as a fixed age is incorrect is that some children might be mentally hanidcapped or have other dependencies for support that still reguire a guardian even at 18+.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2005, 02:58:19 pm by SteveA »
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Evenstar

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Re: "Sometimes you need a little Big Brother," Sawyer said.
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2005, 03:16:07 pm »

Though some states have a legal emancipation process, in New Hampshire it can be verbal but is better done as a written contract between parent and "ex-child".  My web research (mainly found stuff from states that did have a process) indicated that this emancipation can be revoked by the parents at any point before the child reaches the age of majority.

Now, I'm THRILLED that the NH government decided not to get involved in the emancipation process (beyond to recognize emancipated children from other states as emancipated in NH).  You are correct that "If a child runs away from home, they're effectively declaring themselves emancipated" but that does not a legal emancipation make.

The best suggestion I saw (paraphrased, because I don't want to look it up again) is that the parent and child (with attorney, if desired) sit down and have a discussion about the benefits and responsibilities of an adult as they draw up the paperwork.  Something to that effect.

BTW, I agree about 18+ sometimes still being effectively "children."  My 27 year old brother sometimes has me worried... :)
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Michael Reynolds

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Re: "Sometimes you need a little Big Brother," Sawyer said.
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2005, 04:05:50 pm »

The link to the story didn't work when I tried it.  :( Does anyone have the text?
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Evenstar

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Re: "Sometimes you need a little Big Brother," Sawyer said.
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2005, 04:08:09 pm »

To be honest, I make it a habit to read through the posts and then look at the off-site links, so I didn't even notice it, but you're right, the link is too old, I guess.  :(
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Michael Reynolds

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Re: "Sometimes you need a little Big Brother," Sawyer said.
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2005, 04:11:03 pm »

They used to find people like this guy, go to his house in mob form and drag him out in the middle of the night and hang him. It's a pity I have to say "used to."
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KBCraig

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Re: "Sometimes you need a little Big Brother," Sawyer said.
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2005, 01:47:35 am »

Froom the above article:

Under a secondary law, police officers could only issue tickets to drivers who are not buckled up if they are pulled over for another offense, such as speeding or other traffic violations.

Well that is how they passed the law here, but as of last year, the police can pull you over for not wearing your seat belt.

I believe that's been pretty much the pattern everywhere. Arkansas and Texas both moved from secondary to primary offense in their seat belt laws.

Kevin
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KBCraig

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Re: "Sometimes you need a little Big Brother," Sawyer said.
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2005, 01:53:54 am »

Though some states have a legal emancipation process, in New Hampshire it can be verbal . . .

Would that take the form of "I emancipate thee, I emancipate thee, I emancipate thee"? Or, "Git yo lazy, no-working, no schooling, goat smellin' BEEhind up out dis HOUSE!"

Parents of teenagers want to know!

Kevin
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Evenstar

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Re: "Sometimes you need a little Big Brother," Sawyer said.
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2005, 02:59:49 am »

LOL, I was thinking something more along the lines of "run, fly, be free."  But I guess it would depend on the individual teen in question.
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Old Nick

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Re: "Sometimes you need a little Big Brother," Sawyer said.
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2005, 05:52:11 am »

Quote
Some libertarians are fine with the under 18 law, if you are under the assumption that someone under 18 is not capable of making such a decision on his or her own.

I think kids should be allowed to own and carry guns- assuming their parents let them, of course.


Quote
There would probably be more support for moving the age of majority in that than repealing it.

At least make it 16: all rights as they are to be had by age 21 afforded in their entirety, with total responsibilities and consequences included. Social darwinism at its finest, and totally libertarian.


Quote
There was discussion on this way back pre-state vote, and it tends to come down to whether a child should or should not be "protected" from parents who may not always make the best decisions for their child.  It can get really fun, as that can turn into a what-if quagmire almost instantly.

Too much State power. When the parents start beating them bloody THEN give me a call. Otherwise, it's none of my concern, nor the State's.
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rodschmidt

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Re: "Sometimes you need a little Big Brother," Sawyer said.
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2005, 01:34:36 am »

The article is gone. 

404.

Down the memory hole.
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Hannah

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Re: "Sometimes you need a little Big Brother," Sawyer said.
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2005, 05:50:43 pm »

Quote
There was discussion on this way back pre-state vote, and it tends to come down to whether a child should or should not be "protected" from parents who may not always make the best decisions for their child.  It can get really fun, as that can turn into a what-if quagmire almost instantly.

Too much State power. When the parents start beating them bloody THEN give me a call. Otherwise, it's none of my concern, nor the State's.
Quote

Doesn't keeping things like a seatbelt law for children fall under the idea that one purpose of gov't is to protect citizens from direct harm by other citizens?  Most kids honestly can't make good choices in some circumstances, whether because of developmental issues or lack of information.  Once they hit adulthood, they can be on their own.
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