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Author Topic: Some Disturbing Election Results (from a Libertarian perspective)  (Read 8346 times)

maverickthree

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The recent election results for governor in the following 4
states which are up for finalist consideration bears notice and perhaps cause for  concern--Wyoming, Idaho, New Hampshire and Alaska.

--In Wyoming, out of approximately 173,000 votes cast,
  only 2% (3,699) went for the Libertarian candidate Dave    
  Dawson.

--In Idaho, out of approximately 408,000 votes cast, only
   2% (8,177) went for the Libertarian candidate Daniel
   Adams.

--In New Hampshire, out of approximately 430,000+ votes
  cast, only 3% (12,939) went for the Libertarian candidate
  John Babiarz.

--In Alaska, out of approximately 200,000+ votes cast, only
  6,376 votes were logged for 3rd party candidates.

Something to ponder.

                                                               Eric
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Zxcv

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Re:Some Disturbing Election Results (from a Libertarian perspective)
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2002, 05:13:40 pm »

If we get too concerned about how the LP does, we're never going to get anywhere. I'd put this on the less important part of our decision matrix, since they do poorly pretty much everywhere.
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Tyler

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Re:Some Disturbing Election Results (from a Libertarian perspective)
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2002, 03:13:49 am »

Maverick,

It seems to me, and this is just my opinion, that most of the people who care about liberty in those states trust the republicans, misguided as that may be, to guard it. Indeed, in Wyoming I'm sure a number of voters who consider themselves libertarian probably sided with the GOP candidate, who actually lost to the democratic governor elect Freudanthal. Idaho is now a solid block republican state and will remain so for decades, barring unforseen changes. In New Hampshire the voters favouring liberty had the choice of a Democratic candidate who was the antithesis for what they stood for. Many of them may be small L libertarians or even party types, but they saw that they needed to get behind one candidate who would be able to defeat the Tax man, so to speak. Finally Alaska has never really been, at least that I am aware of, a Libertarian paradise. I believe Alaska was Nader's best state, mainly due to the fact that no Democrat since Johnson, if I remember correctly, has won the state.

I'm not a Libertarian, just to get that out of the way, and it seems that the best way for liberty lovers to get elected is to run as republicans, ala Ron Paul, Gary Johnson, et al.
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JayPrimePositive

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Re:Some Disturbing Election Results (from a Libertarian perspective)
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2002, 03:39:16 am »

Another thing to consider, if the 20K all voted a straight L ticket, then those numbers would be

WY 23,699 of 193,000 == 12%
NH 32,939 of 450,000 == 7.3%
ID 28,177 of 428,000 == 6.5%

Draw your own conclusions.  What I see is that if we go to a small state, we will certainly affect the political debate! Just by voting!!  We will do more than just vote, so we will not only keep the state moving towards liberty but we will hurry it along.

j'
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RgnadKzin

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Re:Some Disturbing Election Results (from a Libertarian perspective)
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2002, 10:59:31 am »


Another thing to consider, if the 20K all voted a straight L ticket, then those numbers would be

WY 23,699 of 193,000 == 12%
NH 32,939 of 450,000 == 7.3%
ID 28,177 of 428,000 == 6.5%

Draw your own conclusions.  What I see is that if we go to a small state, we will certainly affect the political debate! Just by voting!!  We will do more than just vote, so we will not only keep the state moving towards liberty but we will hurry it along.


I woud prefer to co-opt one or even both of the other parties. If we take over the republican party in a set of contiguous counties, then our candidate is elected. Look in Wyoming for election results by county in the primaries and see that there are only about 2000 people who vote in the primary. All we have to do is have about 1500 people in that county in order to put out candidate on the ballot.

On the one hand, being a Libertarian is principled.
On the other hand, being a Libertarian can "send a message."
But in the Gripping Hand, we can win if we want to win.
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Zxcv

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Re:Some Disturbing Election Results (from a Libertarian perspective)
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2002, 11:56:21 am »

Quote
WY 23,699 of 193,000 == 12%
NH 32,939 of 450,000 == 7.3%
ID 28,177 of 428,000 == 6.5%

Draw your own conclusions.  

The conclusion I draw is that FSP will be a waste of time if we put all our efforts behind the LP. It will simply modestly improve our ability to act as "spoilers". Sorry, I don't see that tactic as getting us liberty in our lifetime. Maybe 2 or 3 lifetimes...

The whole point of the FSP, as far as I can see, is while having roughly the same ends as the LP, to use a different strategy to achieve those ends.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2002, 12:13:00 pm by Zxcv »
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varrin

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Re:Some Disturbing Election Results (from a Libertarian perspective)
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2002, 11:48:20 pm »

I'll agree that running as Libertarians may not be the quickest route to freedom.  

In a state that's already thouroughly Republican, it would probably be best to use the Republican Party (as corrupt as it may be) to get libertarians elected (ala Paul, as mentioned before).  On the other hand, if we wind up in a more Democratic state, it would certainly be entertaining (to say the least) to use the Democratic party.

I have been thinking latley, there may be more hope for the Democrats than the Republicans.  I know... there's no real hope for either of them.... except for the FSP ;-)

(are we the new RLC?!?!?)

V-

P.S. - I say this have just run for Congress as a Libertarian.  I'm *not* anti-LP.  In fact, I'd love nothing more to elect Libertarians (big L) to office.  But what I'd love even more, is liberty...

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larry

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Re:Some Disturbing Election Results (from a Libertarian perspective)
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2002, 04:43:14 am »

eric,

what you have written just shows how statistics can sometimes fail humans.

idaho's "libertarian" candidate for governor was a full-blown nutcase, who had no support from the party, or anyone else.  he got on the ballot 'cause he had a few bucks to pay the secretary of state for the honor.

there's not a damned libertarian in idaho who voted for him.  we were all mortified by his candidacy, and still his numbers weren't that bad, in relation to the other states you mentioned.

he was arrested a couple days after the election, after having his house surrounded by a swat team for four hours, following a failed suicide attempt in which he could have killed his landlady.  the full-blown nutcase ran into the street, neeked, after he was tear-gassed.  still, he was carrying a sword, with which he managed to cut the taser wire with, before being carted off to the mental hospital ****again*******.

so, are we idaho libs neeked sword fighters, or do statistics not give an accurate view??

tell ya this, statistic wise, for a *damn long time* i held the record for any libertarian running for office *anywhere* in a partisan race.  and that was in the most democrat district in idaho.   33% it was!!

grind that statistic.

sincerely,

larry fullmer
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SandyPrice

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Re:Some Disturbing Election Results (from a Libertarian perspective)
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2002, 10:03:25 am »

I am on the receiving end of many Republican organizations who are furious with my articles promoting something less than the conservative part of the GOP.  I have been blamed for Clinton winning twice and of course this last election our GOP candidate went wobbly on social issues and lost to a firm woman who raised her hand and yelled out "I will work to keep the women's choice firm"  The entire audience roared with approval.  The one candidate who answered all the question with a rational set of statements was Barry Hess who ran as a LP.  Yes, his numbers lost the election for the Conservative candidate and he earned it!  The new Governor is a Democrat!

I attended a meeting Saturday morning where this election was discussed in detail and we all agreed that the GOP sat on their hands and gave the candidate nothing but social issues to run on.  

I have contacted nearly every Republican of authority in D.C. to ask them to firm up the desire for a limited government and get the hell off the American's backs.  From what I can determine, we have the Liberals and the Republicans battling it out but a new group has removed many GOP votes by running as Conservatives (social conservatives).  If the GOP can't get their act together we are totally lost.  

All those numbers of the voters are one thing but we must realize that 2/3rds of the registered voters sat home.  I truly believe that unless we give the voters something to vote FOR we are lost as a nation.

Why not a less intrusive scaled-down party?  I don't care what it's called as long as we can sell it to the public.  We must have some Marketing professionals that could start now and define our principles and when we gather an interest put a title on it.  

The Liberals seem to want to destroy our defense systems and pump more money into welfare programs and I can't seem to find a defining agenda for the Republicans.  The Social conservatives seem to want a holy war where a Christian America will destroy the Islam nations.  

Where does the FSP fit into either party?  I hope neither one.  I can see nothing wrong with a strong defense system, closed borders until INS is fixed and a scaled down set of federal programs to release most of the programs back to the states, including all the social ones.  Could we not base our agenda around these issues where we would have the freedoms to develop our own police, schools, churches, parks and streets all without federal intervention?

I could even see our Income taxes being paid to those federal programs that we approve of.  Highways, INS Universities, Foreign Diplomats, and of course armed services and defense programs.  No foreign aid, no welfare, none of that crap.  I realize we have made a promise to many seniors that for taking their money all their working years, they will need to keep their Social Security and Medicare but there is nothing written that the younger citizens can't use a portion of their earnings to develop their own retirement plans.  This is all possible if we only try.
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maverickthree

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Re:Some Disturbing Election Results (from a Libertarian perspective)
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2002, 10:28:16 am »

    Thank you all for your posts and inputs--I'll try to get back to each of you with private emails about your individu-
al comments. I would just like to add though that the elec-
tion results in my view point out the increasing importance
of seeking to gain political control at a county level(i.e.
concentrating numbers)--the point being not just to influ-
ence political debate, but to hopefully implement policy at
a local level(to start).

                                                         Eric
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Evil men rule when good men do nothing.

Those with the best information are most likely to succeed.

Extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice. And moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.
          ----Barry Goldwater

maverickthree

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Re:Some Disturbing Election Results (from a Libertarian perspective)
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2002, 11:14:59 am »

    Larry, thank you for your background on the Idaho liber-
tarian "nutcase" who ran for governor--sounds like he
would have had a more successful campaign had he been
located in California. An exellent illustration of how statis-
tics can sometimes fail humans and be misleading.
   Also, congradulations on your successful past showing
as a candidate.

                                               Eric
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Evil men rule when good men do nothing.

Those with the best information are most likely to succeed.

Extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice. And moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.
          ----Barry Goldwater

varrin

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Re:Some Disturbing Election Results (from a Libertarian perspective)
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2002, 03:23:08 pm »

If he had run in California, he would have had to compete with *our* nutcase LP Governor candidate who, among other things, promoted his druidity and spit on a talk show host.  But then at least the LP would have had one fewer nutcase governor candidates.  Yeesh...

V-

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Zxcv

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Re:Some Disturbing Election Results (from a Libertarian perspective)
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2002, 10:53:00 pm »

In Oregon we had a professional, thoroughly engaging and well-spoken LP candidate for governor who even our State Ministry of Propaganda (The Oregonian newspaper) complemented for at least addressing the issues the other candidates were avoiding, and presenting his views cogently. They gave him equal space in the paper for his positions. And he was included in televised debates.

He pulled 4.5% of the vote.  ::)
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craft_6

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Re:Some Disturbing Election Results (from a Libertarian perspective)
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2002, 10:53:51 am »

In Oregon we had a professional, thoroughly engaging and well-spoken LP candidate for governor who even our State Ministry of Propaganda (The Oregonian newspaper) complemented for at least addressing the issues the other candidates were avoiding, and presenting his views cogently. They gave him equal space in the paper for his positions. And he was included in televised debates.

He pulled 4.5% of the vote.

Credibility is only the first hurdle for LP candidates.  The next is the fear among small-government Republican voters that supporting a marginally popular Libertarian candidate will elect a big-government Democrat.  Unless the LP candidate can poll above 30%, long-time Republican voters are not going to switch parties, even if they agree more with the Libertarian.

In Massachusetts, 45% voted for Carla Howell's initiative to end the state income tax, but only 1% voted for her, because the R-D race was so close.  The sad part is that the Republican candidate had proposed a variety of new taxes, and wasn't serious about making tough budget cuts at all.
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Tyler

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Re:Some Disturbing Election Results (from a Libertarian perspective)
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2002, 10:35:20 pm »

I had a thought. In many of the Western states being considered by the FSP, the Democrat parties are very weak, I mean specifically Wyoming and Idaho, and, to a lesser extent, Montana. Would it not be easier for you folks to work with the Democrats on a state level, perhaps working to recreate a Jeffersonian Democratic party that could serve as a working model for the national party as a whole? Or is that just a ridiculous pipe dream on my part?
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