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Author Topic: The case for New Hampshire  (Read 53946 times)

Dave Mincin

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Re:The case for New Hampshire
« Reply #105 on: March 13, 2003, 09:51:42 pm »

Continue to use your mind, use your logic, use your numbers.  Why has  libertarians  consistently elected few if anyone?  
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Zxcv

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Re:The case for New Hampshire
« Reply #106 on: March 13, 2003, 10:52:07 pm »

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Have already been informed, by you statistic folks that livablity and people have  0  credibility.  Hmm, been around the block a few times in my life and have found that the only thing that matters is people!

Are we not really back to the same old argument People vs statistics?
Well, there are different ways to look at this.

I actually agree, numbers are not everything. For example, there are probably infinite ways to measure a state. Who knows if we have enough measures to give us a reliable prediction for success?

And what about the numerous things that are hard or impossible to quantify? Or bias in the sources generating our numbers?

That's why I keep on adding rows to my big spreadsheet. I want to know everything that can practically be found and quantified about these states. The more I have, the more confidence I have.

The problem with just going with feelings, is that they vary from person to person. There is nothing to nail them down with. I look at DE and just laugh, but I know there are people here who think DE is the best state. Both of us are relying to a certain extent on what our feelings say.

You say the people are important. I do too, crucially important. I don't live in Wyoming, but Oregon. Eastern and Western Oregon are as different as East coast and interior state. I know the feeling I get when I go over to Eastern Oregon; it is a feeling that I really like the people and they like me. They are just more down-to-earth, and not taken with statist blather. So, thinking eastern Oregon is going to be a lot like Wyoming or Idaho, I tend to conclude, by my feelings, that these states would be good for us. I know the numbers say Idaho would be a problem, but the numbers only reinforce my feelings about Wyoming.

Again, I tend to think livability is unimportant, within the range we are talking about here (we are not considering moving to Africa, after all). So when I run the spreadsheet I don't put much weight on it. But I agree, it will take a lot of adjustment for folks who are used to a large range of jobs and city amenities, in WY far more than NH. That is a given. People have to decide how important this is to them.

All I can say is, getting back to those feelings, my spirits lift when I drive up the Columbia Gorge toward eastern Oregon. Wide open spaces, friendly people, no pushy drivers or traffic jams, sunny skies, lots of hunting and camping and rock-hounding opportunities, clear night skies where you can see a million stars. When I drive back to Portland, my spirits sink. Everything closes in, irritated people in a rat race, nasty drivers, traffictraffictraffic, cloudy skies and rain, yeah some parks with lots of people in them, 2 or 3 stars if you are lucky. That's what my feelings say to me.

Obviously, different people will have a different take on these things.
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Robert H.

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Re:The case for New Hampshire
« Reply #107 on: March 14, 2003, 12:11:21 am »

Have already been informed, by you statistic folks that livablity and people have  0   credibility.  Hmm, been around the block a few times in my life and have found that the only thing that matters is people!

Are we not really back to the same old argument People vs statistics?

Well, for one thing, I would submit that statistics are not entirely divorced from the issue of people.  You can tell a great deal about a state's people by virtue of various statistics: political affiliation, levels of disaffection, voting history, initiative measures, etc...  All of these things, as well as others, can tell you much about people.  In fact, most of our statistics relate to people.

As for livability, this is pretty much in the eye of the beholder.  None of these states are the dark side of the Moon though, and if giving up a few amenities is the price of starting this project out on the best possible foundation, then I believe it would be worth it.  And Wyoming is not even the extreme when it comes to lack of amenities.  It's proximity to Denver and Salt Lake City place it far closer to "civilization" than Alaska, North Dakota, or Montana, for instance.

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While you talk numbers I see action in NH.  You see numbers I see people doing, getting involved, building!
The Welcome to The Granite State Committee, promoting FSP, working on a system to help us find jobs and a place to live.  I see action not talk, passing out fliers, maning phones, knocking on doors, and electing freedom loving people.

A few libertarians selling their wares to a few more libertarians is a far cry from a few libertarians selling libertarianism to a whole lot of statists.  The NHLP is well organized and clever, but the issue of a free state will not be settled by how impressive the FSP finds the NHLP.  It will be settled by how effective the FSP and NHLP could be among the masses of New Hampshire, which is a matter that involves more than a little posturing and power of positive thinking.

We also need to be careful of what the bottom line emphasis is here:  The FSP is concerned about finding the best state for liberty.  The NHLP is concerned about how to get the FSP into New Hampshire.  These goals are not exactly parallel.  The best state for liberty may or may not have anything to do with what that state's LP is doing for the FSP.

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Re:The case for New Hampshire
« Reply #108 on: March 14, 2003, 01:21:23 am »

There is a bill working its way through the NH legislature right now to make NH a right-to-work state. Quite frankly though, a right-to-work law does not seem to me like something libertarians ought to support. If a factory and a union reach an agreement that all labor in the factory will be union labor, does the state really have any business intervening in this arrangement?

Zxcv answered this one already along the lines of what I was thinking.

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Regarding vote counting, how would those cowboys know whether thier votes are being stolen? This all happens behind closed doors and Wyoming law does not allow for the public to observe the process.

If it's all happening behind closed doors where no one can observe the process, then how do you know that votes are being stolen at all?

Personally, I've never heard of any voting controversy in Wyoming.  The electorate there seems rather content with its system.  The recent election of a Democrat governor in a Republican dominated state, as well as the success of the WYLP, makes me think that the system cannot be too corrupt or such events would not have taken place.

That said, I do believe in what are called "sunshine" laws, and this would probably be something that we would look at changing in Wyoming.  

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Regarding the NH income tax, do you honestly think the Democrats would try that idea again any time in the next ten years after what happened to them in the 2002 election? You must be kidding.

George, Tennesseans showed up in Nashville by the thousands, threw rocks through the state house windows, and generally laid siege to the place in response to threatened tax increases.  But this didn't stop the politicians from bringing this issue up again and again and again in spite of repeated, wide-spread protests.

Think back to 1994 as well.  The GOP kicked the Democrats out of power on Capitol Hill for the first time in forty years, and the very next year the Democrats came back and won one of their biggest victories of the Clinton years: blaming the Republicans for the 1995 government shut-down.  The GOP never really did recover from that until 2002, and it came right on the heels of one of their biggest successes.

There is no true defeat for such people in politics.  There is only "next time."

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Regarding your idea that "Education freedom and reform is going to be a tough sell there with so many advocates for "the children" working so well-equipped", I don't think you could be more wrong. NH taxpayers are so fed up with high property taxes that they are willing to consider all kinds of alternatives which might help reduce their tax bills.

Education is the very last thing that most people will tolerate any real interference or experimentation with, and the NEA in particular is excellent at exploiting that weakness.  With so much of property taxation going to pay for education, they'll probably have to have something in place before they'll agree to any sort of reductions, and the path of least resistance is increasing other forms of taxation.  Privatization and other forms of more libertarian reform probably won't be given much of a hearing due to their much more controversial and experimental nature.

But no one would be happier than me if I were to be proven wrong about that.

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NH has a different type of term limits than the statist type you prefer. We pay our representatives and senators $100 per year. At that salary they don't have much incentive to hang around for too many terms. Incumbency rates are not high in New Hampshire.

Well, you can make the argument that voting and laws of any kind are all statist because they force at least some to conform against their will.  The problem is trying to figure out how to work within this imperfect world to promote liberty to the fullest extent possible.  Sometimes it just boils down to simply instituting various means of defending yourself.  Term limits is an example of this.

I don't know how long the New Hampshire legislature meets each year, but $100 a year seems like it would mean that legislators would either have to be independently wealthy or at least have another source of income.  I don't think that legislators ought to get wealthy off of their public service, but it seems like it ought to sustain them a bit more so they can devote more of their time to the work.  More people could probably afford to participate if that were the case, but I suppose it would vary from person to person.

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NH has a rather unique form of intitiative and referendum - if our elected officials are not doing what we want we simply re-elect the entire government (from governor on down) as often as every two years. I believe only one other state does this.

I would have to ask the same question as Zxcv: how often does this actually take place?  

And also, electing the entire government seems like it would take an overwhelming level of support that could be difficult to get in a larger population.  Initiatives only require a certain % of the voters to be considered, and then they go up for a general vote anyway.  It seems like this would be a simpler way of getting things done.

Dave Mincin

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Re:The case for New Hampshire
« Reply #109 on: March 14, 2003, 09:15:07 am »

Right now, today, as we speak, the people, most of the people of NH are angry!  Angry about taxes, and the public school system.  The perfect time for us to use these issues to gain support, elect legislators, spread the word of freedom!  One must have issues that excite people, we will not win elections without the support of many more than our numbers.

You would submit that sometime in the distant future we move to some sparcely populated state, develope some yet undefined political structure, and begin to fight for freedom.

Yet today as we speak, freedom is under assault in all corners of our country, or am I to believe that freedom is not under assault in sparcely populated areas, and they will await patiently for our arrival?

NH offers us the opportunity to begin the fight now!
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Robert H.

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Re:The case for New Hampshire
« Reply #110 on: March 15, 2003, 12:41:29 am »

You would submit that sometime in the distant future we move to some sparcely populated state, develope some yet undefined political structure, and begin to fight for freedom.

Where do you get this from?  

"Distant future?"  We could start our migration to Wyoming immediately following the vote.  With New Hampshire, we're going to have to wait until we have some clue that we're going to get the full 20,000 or else come very close.  

"Sparcely populated state?"  This is an advantage for us.

"Develope some yet undefined political structure?"  We'd be following roughly the same plan in either New Hampshire or Wyoming.

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Yet today as we speak, freedom is under assault in all corners of our country, or am I to believe that freedom is not under assault in sparcely populated areas, and they will await patiently for our arrival?

You've totally lost me here.

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NH offers us the opportunity to begin the fight now!

And what about this from the above?:  "Yet today as we speak, freedom is under assault in all corners of our country..."  

The "fight" has already begun and can be fought in any state of the Union.  New Hampshire does not have a patent on the fight for liberty, to my knowledge.

Dave Mincin

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Re:The case for New Hampshire
« Reply #111 on: March 15, 2003, 09:36:56 am »

And after the election you and your couple of NH bashers will move!  Hundreds have already committed to move to NH after the election, and we will immediately be able to help elect freedom loving candidates.

You will begin to organize, begin to campaign, begin to make friends, and establish contacts, it's already happening in NH!

While you talk, incredible things are happening in NH!

You would propose we make a decision solely based on numbers.  I would submit people do not make decision solely based on numbers!

For those out there who want something besides just numbers to make your decision may I suggest you visit (http://www.lpnh.org/why-nh.htm)
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Robert H.

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Re:The case for New Hampshire
« Reply #112 on: March 15, 2003, 01:32:14 pm »

And after the election you and your couple of NH bashers will move!

Forgive my impertinence.  I was unaware that weighing New Hampshire by the same criteria as the other states made me a "basher."   I should have known better by now.   ::)

I'm beginning to think New Hampshire's motto should be changed to "Live HERE or die!"  I just hope that you guys don't try selling your agenda in New Hampshire the same way that you try selling New Hampshire in this forum.

Dave Mincin

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Re:The case for New Hampshire
« Reply #113 on: March 15, 2003, 02:44:41 pm »

Forgiven ;)!  

I will concede that numbers have their place in decision making, and I'm sure when you got your education you pulled out a stat sheet, looked were are the jobs were and use that to guide your education!

Alas life would be so easy, if all we had to do is pull out a spread sheet, take a peek,  pick the top job, pick the top state, hey while we are at it we could even pick a mate that way!  We would all be wealthy, happy and free!  But alas my friend, life does not work that way.

As we approach perhaps the most important decision any of us will every make, you would have us make that decision soley based on numbers.  Is that how you make your decisions?  Hmm interesting indeed!

To decide were we will live, raise a family, grow old, and yes establish a free state.  If you think that kind of decision should be based only on numbers, hey go for it!

Ten states have been chosen using your numbers to have a fair chance of attaining our mutual goal of Freedom in Our Life Time!

Look forward to working with you in NH :)



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George Reich

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Re:The case for New Hampshire
« Reply #114 on: March 15, 2003, 06:57:57 pm »

ELECTIONS ARE DECIDED BY THE NUMBERS!
50.1% beats 49.9%
And THAT is the bottom line which determines the success or not of the Free State.

The process of tabulating the votes plays a critical role in determining who gets the 50.1% and who gets the 49.9%. Of the ten candidate states, New Hampshire's election laws provide the best protection against vote counting fraud.



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Re:The case for New Hampshire
« Reply #115 on: March 15, 2003, 08:45:33 pm »

And after the election you and your couple of NH bashers will move!  Hundreds have already committed to move to NH after the election, and we will immediately be able to help elect freedom loving candidates.


I hope this is not true.  According to populations percentages 4,500 in WY can do around as much good as 10,000 in NH.  Yes, WY needs less than 1/2 the people NH needs.  What does this mean?  If the FSP only gets 15,000 it will fail as a project and likely the back-up plan of moving to Wyoming, will take over.  This means that all of those people that moved to NH before it got 20,000 will be out of the loop.  They will not be helping to create a free state and will have wasted all of the money it cost them to move.  However, if WY is picked and it does not get 20,000, the people that move early will not have to move again.  They will, in NH.

Please, listen to me, Please, no one, move to NH until 20,000 people have signed up unless you want to move again.  I would hate to see 100s of FSP members waster 1000s of dollars that they could give to the freedom movement on having to move a second time.
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Dave Mincin

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Re:The case for New Hampshire
« Reply #116 on: March 15, 2003, 10:51:37 pm »

FreedomRoad it is so refreshing to hear someone speak from their heart.  Believing your handle is what you are about...A believer in freedom!

Myself being much older than most of us, have did the free spirit thing of the 60's and 70's, traveled the lenght and breath of this beautiful country we live in, know that there is so many freedom loving people out there. talked to many of them :).

Geez, your probably right 4,500, could do more in some state with few people, than 10,000 in NH, but is it fair to ask people to give up all?  Why can't we have both a beautiful place to live and freedom to?

"Yo yea with so little faith."  Should we sell ourselves short?  Give up before we have really begun?  Settle for some place no one really want to go to, simple because the numbers say we can do it with less people?

The mission of FSP is to recruit 20,000 liberty loving, committed political activitists.  Saw something today that we are averaging 12.5 new people a day, and at that level we will reach 5,000 by late August.  Not bad for a movement that started just a couple years back.  If we continue to tell our story I am confident we will reach our goal and much more soon!

Should we wait to move?  You make a good point.  But what I would say to that.  Do you believe?  No bull shit but really believe?  I know that we are the last chance to turn the tide of government being in total control of our lives, but I also know that people need a place to live a comfortable life.

Also know the people in NH are with us and welcome us, and will work with us.  All I know from the other states is that the numbers look good.

So yes knowing the potential downfalls, once NH wins the election I will move, I will join in there fight.  I am confident that FSP will reach 20,000, and will go much beyond that.  I am confident that NH is the best place considering all,  for us to find freedom in our live time!
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Re:The case for New Hampshire
« Reply #117 on: March 15, 2003, 11:35:46 pm »

FreedomRoad,

If the FSP reaches 15,000 and it fails it will only be because people refused to move. The only difference between 15,000 and 20,000 members is 33% of the FSP members getting off their behinds and signing up one person each. If we can't get that level of activism out of 5000 FSP members it won't matter where they go because they won't do anything once they get there. And given the current sorry state of recruitment, I am not hopeful that there are many activists in the first 2800 FSP members. If each of them got just one person signed up we could be voting next week, instead of a projected August date.

Getting the people to move into a state quickly is much more important than  the total number of current FSP members. If the state is libertarian oriented we can easily make up the numbers once we get there and get started. If it isn't, 20,000 people are not going to make enough of a difference for us to succeed. I would rather go with 10,000 people to a state like NH where the LP wants us, and the people have a libertarian tradition, rather than go with 20,000 to a state where the people are indifferent and the LP barely exists.

The only place 15,000 hurts us more than 20,000 is for those who use it as an excuse not to move and those people are not going to help us anyway whether they come or not.

George
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Re:The case for New Hampshire
« Reply #118 on: March 15, 2003, 11:49:01 pm »

To be honest Marsh Robert, I don't intend to wait for the vote. Right now I am stuck in NJ and will gladly move to NH ahead of time. It is far and away the best place for the FSP and I want to be able to help pave the way for my fellow porcupines as they move there.

If the others can't see that and by some unfortunate accident select another state, it would be easy enough to move again. God knows the property in most of the western states isn't worth a hill of beans. There's a reason those states have such low populations.

George
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George Reich

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Re:The case for New Hampshire
« Reply #119 on: March 16, 2003, 12:19:40 am »

If it's all happening behind closed doors where no one can observe the process, then how do you know that votes are being stolen at all?

Read the book "Votescam" by James and Kenneth Collier - that will give you the answer to your question.
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