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[5pectre]

to make it clear, guys refers to maestro and blnelson, not you mouse

[Barbara]

Get over yourself - 5pectre

[5pectre]

from: http://tuxedo.org/jargon/index.html

TANSTAAFL /tan'stah-fl/

[acronym, from Robert Heinlein's classic SF novel "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress".] "There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch", often invoked when someone is balking at the prospect of using an unpleasantly heavyweight technique, or at the poor quality of some piece of software, or at the signal-to-noise ratio of unmoderated Usenet newsgroups. "What? Don't tell me I have to implement a database back end to get my address book program to work!" "Well, TANSTAAFL you know." This phrase owes some of its popularity to the high concentration of science-fiction fans and political libertarians in hackerdom (see Appendix B for discussion).

Outside hacker circles the variant TINSTAAFL ("There is No Such Thing...") is apparently more common, and can be traced back to 1952 in the writings of ethicist Alvin Hansen. TANSTAAFL may well have arisen from it by

[5pectre]

Get over yourself

sorry, i've already done it twice today

nice to see an intelligent and reasonable response. just as i expected.

[Barbara]

from: http://tuxedo.org/jargon/index.html

TANSTAAFL /tan'stah-fl/

Thanks for the elucidation

Why do you think that the only way to support this country is to serve in the military?

[Barbara]

nice to see an intelligent and reasonable response. just as i expected.

Nothing more than you deserve.  And I said get over yourself, not get off on yourself

[5pectre]

Thanks for the clarification.

I don't understand, I don't think anything I have said has been anything against the american people.

I have criticised the american government (as much as i would criticise any government).

Don't I deserve an rational explanation of why you would pigeonhole me?

Why do you suggest that I get over myself? Do I seem rude to you? Have I offended you in any way? Do I appear arrogant or unreasonable?

I am trying to present a reasoned argument and you are coming back with emotions. Why won't you refute what I have said with facts and references?

[Barbara]

blnelson: The military aspect pertaining to those physically or mentally unable - see "or equivalent". There are many suport roles which need to be manned (or womaned, as the case may be.)

Like?

[maestro]

Spectre, I think you'll find the _vast_ majority of my posts are non-emotional, and when they are, they are accompanied by argument, flawed though the arguments might be.  

I have delayed making a decent argument right now because I am formulating an argument to attempt to split the issues.  I was busy last night watching the elections  (I'm happy that the democrats have lost drastic power but I'm a bit worried with what the republicans will do while untethered).

With regard to being humble, I was being comparative.  I was also somewhat kidding since we obviously do have some problems.  However, being humble in the face of our immensely higher efficiency compared to Europe seems almost like lying.  It would be a false humility, and would play along to some of the silly European idealists ideas of how poorly structured we are.  I'm not naming you 5pecter, but I tend to agree with bnelson that the european intelligentsia (at least the ones we see on tv) take great pleasure in attempting to tear down the good things we do as well as the bad.

[Barbara]

I don't understand, I don't think anything I have said has been anything against the american people.

oh really:

they don't have to think about government policy there because what the government says goes and i'm sure they are very patriotic about it. much like the north koreans and the cubans...

Everyone in this country seems to assume that the rest of the world speaks english (a leftover from imperialism i suppose)...

I have rarely seen any libertarians with an in depth knowledge of their countries foreign policy...

anyone criticising new 'anti-terrorist' policies gets shouted down for being un-patriotic and siding with the terrorists...

It is a very hypocritical stance and like the US stance on so called 'free trade' causes worldwide resentment...

No, the US prefers to hire other people to do their terrorism for them

nope,nothing about Americans here.

Why won't you refute what I have said with facts and references?

You have presented no facts to be refuted.  You have provided your opinions and those of anti-American media, your spin on the definiton of terrorism, opinion on for the most part anti-Israeli and muslim produced websites.  

In fact, I feel very strongly that most government - democrat/republican/independent/libertarian - will be despotic.  Most governments are peopled with power-lusting autocrats.  The U.S. government is far from perfect.   And I intend to change that to the best of my ability.  But I am an American.  I love the principles of freedom this country was founded on - and I believe in those principles (just feel some errors were made that now need to be corrected).

Sort of like a mother bear I guess - I might knock around my cubs, but you'd better leave them alone.

I guess we can't discuss foreign policy, 5pectre, because it sounds like we disagree on fundamentals, and the purpose of this group is to work on domestic issues anyway - at least at first - maybe someday foreign policy, but not yet.

Mouse -
I am not an isolationist either.  I believe when we are threatened, we have to eliminate the threat (that is where this topic started).  We can disagree on how to do that or whether that is in fact what we are doing, but I don't think you would disagree that if someone is coming at you with a gun, and shouting to the world they are going to kill you, that you have to wait until they shoot to eliminate the threat.  And as to who shot first, well we can go back to the 14th century, but it just doesn't seem a productive use of time.  The most recent shot I care about was three airplanes full of Americans plowing into two buildings, and killing thousands of people, and the continued threat to do it again.

Mouse quote:

I'm an American, and the fact is, I do love my country. Not its government, but its people (even as screwed up as most seem to be), its lands, and its founding concepts

Me too.

I will in fact kill to defend those... as well as risk my life for same... but not to support a government which has gone insane. That is not patriotism, that is a shameful travesty of patriotism.

I agree.

[5pectre]

Everyone in this country seems to assume that the rest of the world speaks english (a leftover from imperialism i suppose)...

Heh, if you read the comment you'll see that the country I refer to is MY home country, Britain.

No, the US prefers to hire other people to do their terrorism for them

That is anti-US govt. I wouldn't presume that individual american people would hire terrorists.

I have rarely seen any libertarians with an in depth knowledge of their countries foreign policy...

Statement of fact. I have not come into contact with many libertarians that have an in depth knowledge of US policy.

It is a very hypocritical stance and like the US stance on so called 'free trade' causes worldwide resentment...

Again, referring to the US government.

anyone criticising new 'anti-terrorist' policies gets shouted down for being un-patriotic and siding with the terrorists...

Mainly the government, but also the media and some american individuals

My apologies if you misunderstood, other americans on this board seemed to get the message. MouseBorg: I didn't see anything that way myself (against the American people that is.)

anti-Israeli

My comments have been anti-israeli government. Not against the Israeli people. Which websites that I posted have been created by muslims. I don't think I did post any.

A summary of the links I have posted:

http://www.inrs-telecom.uquebec.ca/users/amer/kufrqassem/washngton_post_on_KQm.html (Canadian)
http://www.yesh-gvul.org/english.html (Israeli)
http://www.seruv.org.il/defaulteng.asp (Israeli)
http://www.krysstal.com/democracy_israel.html (Greek / American)
http://www.ronholland.com/supportwashington.htm (American)
http://www.krysstal.com/democracy_media.html (Greek / American)
http://tuxedo.org/jargon/index.html (American)

Your continual evasion of my questions is what is making it impossible to discuss foreign policy. I don't suppose you've ever worked for the government have you?

The most recent shot I care about was three airplanes full of Americans plowing into two buildings, and killing thousands of people, and the continued threat to do it again.

Perhaps that is your problem, you care when something bad happens to your country, but when your government does something bad to another country and they get angry you don't care.

5pectre: Spelling ref was in relation to my having to correct my own spelling after posting... was terrible. Oh, and as for saving you from the Nazis? Check Prescott Bush (George's grandad) & Hitler as per Union Bank and why the gov snagged it (traiding with the enemy). Try Google search. No shortage of info on this.

Thanks, will do

I have delayed making a decent argument right now because I am formulating an argument to attempt to split the issues

Cool, i'd like to see it

I'm not naming you 5pecter, but I tend to agree with bnelson that the european intelligentsia (at least the ones we see on tv) take great pleasure in attempting to tear down the good things we do as well as the bad.

Precisely the problem. Making assumptions about an entire continent of people based on what you see in your media isn't a good idea. Have you met many people from europe? There are media stereotypes everywhere, it is important to see past them.

Apologies if i went off on one but sometimes it feels like i'm talking to a brick wall

[maestro]

Actually I've met a lot of europeans.  I haven't met many who act the way I described, but I see them often enough on TV and news.  BTW, I don't much like the american intelligentsia either.  When I refer to the "intelligentsia" I'm referring to a particular class of people whose traits include the assumption of intellectual and moral superiority, and who espouse socialism and liberalism.  yeah I know that's a narrow definition, but I don't find intelligent conservatives and libertarians calling themselves intelligentsia very often

[5pectre]

Actually I've met a lot of europeans.  I haven't met many who act the way I described,

Funny that

but I see them often enough on TV and news.

How convienient, see mouseborgs comment on media conditioning.

BTW, I don't much like the american intelligentsia either.  When I refer to the "intelligentsia" I'm referring to a particular class of people whose traits include the assumption of intellectual and moral superiority, and who espouse socialism and liberalism.

I would espouse some of the theories of socialism and liberalism but i certainly wouldn't call myself 'intelligentsia' or automatically assume that i was morally or intellectually superior to anyone. I don't think many of my friends would call themselves intelligentsia. It sounds like a name that the media has invented.

yeah I know that's a narrow definition, but I don't find intelligent conservatives and libertarians calling themselves intelligentsia very often

I don't think i've ever heard anyone i've talked to call themselves intelligentsia (and i've talked to all kinds of different people).

I found that (on average) the conservatives (at least in this country) automatically assume that they are morally right and all liberals/libertarians/socialists are morally bankrupt.

[5pectre]

Maestro & I rarely agree on these subjects, but I assure you he will give you a well thought out, yet quite polite debate. We've enjoyed many such discussions, which for many folks would have ended in harsh words, but such has not occured, and he has certainly earned my respect in that area.

Good. I am always willing to take on new ideas. I don't subscribe to the 'an open mind is an empty mind' rhetoric.

[maestro]

Actually I've met a lot of europeans.  I haven't met many who act the way I described,

Funny that

but I see them often enough on TV and news.

How convienient, see mouseborgs comment on media conditioning.

BTW, I don't much like the american intelligentsia either.  When I refer to the "intelligentsia" I'm referring to a particular class of people whose traits include the assumption of intellectual and moral superiority, and who espouse socialism and liberalism.

I would espouse some of the theories of socialism and liberalism but i certainly wouldn't call myself 'intelligentsia' or automatically assume that i was morally or intellectually superior to anyone. I don't think many of my friends would call themselves intelligentsia. It sounds like a name that the media has invented.

yeah I know that's a narrow definition, but I don't find intelligent conservatives and libertarians calling themselves intelligentsia very often

I don't think i've ever heard anyone i've talked to call themselves intelligentsia (and i've talked to all kinds of different people).

I found that (on average) the conservatives (at least in this country) automatically assume that they are morally right and all liberals/libertarians/socialists are morally bankrupt.

I have met at least one guy who would have called himself intelligentsia.  It _seems_ to be a positive term in the media, but one that _I_ have determined to be negative when measured against my philosophies.  Also they wouldn't admit to believing themselves to be intellectually superior etc, but that's my assessment (although I'll admit I am guilty of this assertion myself when faced with the idiocy of the general public)  They used to be bleeding heart liberal, but are now nearly libertarian after lots of arguments, etc.

BTW, I'm libertarian locally and anarchistic (in the traditional sense, not the NAP form) globally.  I don't think liberals and socialists are morally bankrupt, just short-sighted or stupid.  Socialist politicians are evil, since they _know_ the long-term damage that socialism causes but they'll use it for short-term power gain.  

It is my belief, however, that globally, we must have either anarchy or global goverment.  I am very much against global government, as it will by necessity destroy the protection of the rights of US citizens (since freedom of speech isn't a popular position among governments).  As such, the most powerful is fully capable of exerting whatever effect upon the rest of the world that it desires.  It is inhibited by the ire and power of the rest of the world.  The US's power is far superior to the rest of the world, but that is due to a highly effective culture and society, and as such is earned power.  I don't find this to be a hypocritical position to take, but I can understand it if you feel differently.