Free State Project Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6   Go Down

Author Topic: We're being way too negative  (Read 21029 times)

Justin

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 686
  • So... these are going to be my neighbors?!
Re:We're being way too negative
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2004, 12:13:26 pm »

Poppycock!  Balderdash!  Piffle!


The FSP should not waste time seeking to convert the 90-percenters to join our ranks.  Now is the time to find those who already understand freedom, fully and without contradiction.

When the socialists seek to increase their numbers, they aim for the young and impressionable; they speak to egalitarian emotionalism, of theft and greed and slavery.  This methodology is extremely beneficial for the socialists in that new converts are the most fervent belivers, able to speak the party line with conviction, and nary a logical thought goes unignored.   But that which benefits our enemies does not benefit us.

We must use reason; we must explain true compassion, the compassion to let others do as we might not; we must convey that there are no contradictions, most especially with freedom.  But first we must get 20,000 individuals who are already girded with the tools to fight this battle.

When we are in the fray, and the enemy is before you, do you wish also to have to fight the man next to you when his socialist indoctrination rears its ugly head?  We'll have plenty of time to spend educating the educatable once the army is amassed.

And if we should be unable to get 20,000 that can bear the full brunt of freedom, what then?  Then it would have been a lost battle, before the first sword unsheathed, neophyte soldiers notwithstanding.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2004, 12:25:11 pm by Justin »
Logged
Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. - Diderot

rdeacon

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1874
  • Six Years Into a Ten Year Sojourn
Re:We're being way too negative
« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2004, 02:55:39 pm »

The FSP should not waste time seeking to convert the 90-percenters to join our ranks.  Now is the time to find those who already understand freedom, fully and without contradiction.
You don't have to believe in ZAP to understand freedom.  People are liberty-leaning for a great many different reasons, and we need to embrace all of those reasons.  90% is a damn fine percentage when it comes to politics - it's way more libertarian than I am (I scored an 81 on that purity test).

Quote
When the socialists seek to increase their numbers, they aim for the young and impressionable; they speak to egalitarian emotionalism, of theft and greed and slavery.  This methodology is extremely beneficial for the socialists in that new converts are the most fervent belivers, able to speak the party line with conviction, and nary a logical thought goes unignored.   But that which benefits our enemies does not benefit us.
Actually, the socialists increase their numbers by mobilizing moderates and appealing to the mainstream.  How do you think socialism gained prominance in America?  Because socialists attracted the mainstream through incrementalism and moderate action.  Sure, you'll always have the extremists shouting in the corner, but a lot of socialist action is taken in small steps, at the local level - and such an approach works.  This is also exactly the reason why libertarianism routinely fails, because we pitch a small tent and show the door to anybody who doesn't fall into lockstep.

Quote
We must use reason; we must explain true compassion, the compassion to let others do as we might not; we must convey that there are no contradictions, most especially with freedom.  But first we must get 20,000 individuals who are already girded with the tools to fight this battle.
I think that any extremist libertarian already knows about the FSP.  Who doesn't know about the FSP?  People who genuinely believe in smaller government, but aren't ready to accept donkey sex shows, legal incest and the open carry of artillery.  These are the people that we need to mobilize!!!

Quote
When we are in the fray, and the enemy is before you, do you wish also to have to fight the man next to you when his socialist indoctrination rears its ugly head?  We'll have plenty of time to spend educating the educatable once the army is amassed.
This is not analogous.  First off, our efforts are not analogous to war, a better analogy would be one of negotiations between peaceful peoples.  If it were war, we'd be outnumbered 100 to 1 because we close our doors to anybody who isn't "pure".  Ask the Nazis how well that strategy worked.
Logged

thrivetacobell

  • FSP Participant
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 149
Re:We're being way too negative
« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2004, 03:33:23 pm »

If we could get people that agreed with the simple fact that government is too big, I'd like to have them.

 We aren't moving to NH because its people support us 100%. They may agree with one or two things... And if they understand the reasoning which makes those true, they'll probably be more open to understanding how our other beliefs are justified.

Hopefully NH will take after Canada, and truly celebrate diversity rather than boil 'em all down in the American melting pot.
Logged
"There is only one success - to be able to spend your life in your own way."
                       Chistopher Morley

SteveA

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2905
  • Freedom - Are you man enough to handle it?
Re:We're being way too negative
« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2004, 04:32:52 pm »

Quote
I get so frustrated when people I talk with say they believe in something (like that its wrong to take something that belongs to someone else) but then hold positions on individual issues that contradict their belief

Plenty of conservatives fall under this category.  (I can personally vouch).  For all the talk of smaller government, they don't know how to do it.  It's just like saying, I want lower taxes AND more law enforcement (we can help make it more efficient but there's a real limit).

Quote
Hopefully NH will take after Canada, and truly celebrate diversity rather than boil 'em all down in the American melting pot.

:)  I agree.  When I visited Canada, the people were great there.
Logged
"Fruitless, born a thousand times, lies barren.  Unguided inspiration, yields random motion, circumscribed in destination, going nowhere.  Guidance uninspired, always true in facing, stands immobile.  But fixed upon that destination firmly and with inspiration lofted; beget your dreams."

RidleyReport

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3527
Re:We're being way too negative
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2004, 05:36:11 pm »

In response to penguin's original message here...

Flame wars and such are the norm for all message boards of all ideologies.   I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Unlike most message board groups we will be getting together in person a lot, and that generally tends to harmonize things.
Logged
http://RidleyReport.com
http://NHexit.com - If Britain can do it, New Hampshire can do it

penguinsscareme

  • FSP Participant
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 336
  • Ain't nobody's business but mine
    • Free State Project/self-sufficiency living liaison
Re:We're being way too negative
« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2004, 06:12:26 pm »

I'll be really happy when that happens.  I have yet to meet another porcupine in the flesh, although that will be changing next week.
It's my impression that the great majority of us do not agree about everything 100% but accept that as the way life is and that we can work together very well because we share most of our staple views of liberty.
Unfortunately it seems that with every cause but the most mainstream, it is the most extreme views which are expressed the most loudly.

Andrew
Logged
Stamp freestateproject.org on your cash!  Stamp & inkpad run less than $10 & it's the single most effective and easy thing you can do for the fsp.  And it's legal, just don't obscure the serial #.  www.currentlabels.com

penguinsscareme

  • FSP Participant
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 336
  • Ain't nobody's business but mine
    • Free State Project/self-sufficiency living liaison
Re:We're being way too negative
« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2004, 06:49:27 pm »

You know what else I've noticed, a lot of hard-line libertarians reject the fsp and will not endorse us because we do not measure up to their lofty ideals.  They turn a deaf ear to us exactly because we do embrace 90%-ers.
The real purists, they're not even in the fsp.

I don't think it's possible to find two people, let alone 20,000, who agree fully and without contradiction on 100% of everything.  Hey, my wife and I can't even do that.  In fact, the more closely one person identifies with another, the more contentious their differences become.  It's easier to tolerate two colors that are completely different than two colors that are almost but not quite identical, or two musical notes that are in different keys entirely than two notes that are really close but just a little off.
I guess that's why 90% is such a difficult number.  But my wife and I, who agree on most things but disagree on a few, have been working together quite beautifully for almost seven years, and we are even bringing up the next generation now.
I've found it much easier to work with people who do not have very advanced degrees in political theory simply because they don't make the fatal mistake of thinking they've got it all figured out and everyone else is wrong.  It's ironic that we ostensibly come to the forum to have an intelligent exchange of ideas and learn from one another, but so often the discussion quickly falls into dogmatic impasse.
Logged
Stamp freestateproject.org on your cash!  Stamp & inkpad run less than $10 & it's the single most effective and easy thing you can do for the fsp.  And it's legal, just don't obscure the serial #.  www.currentlabels.com

Justin

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 686
  • So... these are going to be my neighbors?!
Re:We're being way too negative
« Reply #22 on: March 13, 2004, 07:28:44 pm »

The FSP should not waste time seeking to convert the 90-percenters to join our ranks.  Now is the time to find those who already understand freedom, fully and without contradiction.
You don't have to believe in ZAP to understand freedom.  

But if one does understand freedom (without self-contradiction, or using the word to cover your own socialistic goals) then logically one would must accept the zero-aggression principle.  If someone "isn't there yet" philosophically, there is a wealth of info out there to help them, encourage them to move to NH.  We just don't need them falsely padding the FSP membership count.


People are liberty-leaning for a great many different reasons, and we need to embrace all of those reasons.  90% is a damn fine percentage when it comes to politics - it's way more libertarian than I am (I scored an 81 on that purity test).

How one gets to a philosphical point of development is largely irrelevant.  The fact that they are at that point is what counts.  Those who have not yet fully realized where liberty must logically lead them are not at that point yet.


When the socialists seek to increase their numbers...   But that which benefits our enemies does not benefit us.
Actually, the socialists increase their numbers by mobilizing moderates and appealing to the mainstream.  How do you think socialism gained prominance in America?  Because socialists attracted the mainstream through incrementalism and moderate action.

You're making my point for me.  Reason takes effort.  Primitivism, emotionalism, and socialism do not.  Welcoming those without rational mettle might increase our numbers, but only by putting principles of liberty as a secondary priority.  If there are not 20,000 reasoned liberty activists then the FSP should fail.  

"The spread of evil is the symptom of a vacuum. Whenever evil wins, it is only by default: by the moral failure of those who evade the fact that there can be no compromise on basic principles." - Rand


We must use reason; we must explain true compassion, the compassion to let others do as we might not; we must convey that there are no contradictions, most especially with freedom.  But first we must get 20,000 individuals who are already girded with the tools to fight this battle.
I think that any extremist libertarian already knows about the FSP.  Who doesn't know about the FSP?  People who genuinely believe in smaller government, but aren't ready to accept donkey sex shows, legal incest and the open carry of artillery.  These are the people that we need to mobilize!!!

Mobilize for what?  Lower taxes?  Bah!   Opening the doors to all-comers will only give us false hope.  Better to fail and know there aren't enough people in the world that care about freedom, than to wander naively into a conflict ill prepared.



To summarize, if someone doesn't understand the full impact of true liberty, then we needn't dilute our membership with their participation.  We would be better served by simply pointing them to some good reading material.
« Last Edit: March 13, 2004, 07:41:05 pm by Justin »
Logged
Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. - Diderot

Justin

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 686
  • So... these are going to be my neighbors?!
Re:We're being way too negative
« Reply #23 on: March 13, 2004, 07:36:48 pm »

I don't think it's possible to find two people, let alone 20,000, who agree fully and without contradiction on 100% of everything.

Don't make the mistake of confusing differences in concrete implementation for differences in principle.  Many here may disagree with how things should work, but only a few disagree philosophically.  Those few seem to be slowly weeded out.
Logged
Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. - Diderot

thrivetacobell

  • FSP Participant
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 149
Re:We're being way too negative
« Reply #24 on: March 13, 2004, 07:41:57 pm »

<<I've found it much easier to work with people who do not have very advanced degrees in political theory simply because they don't make the fatal mistake of thinking they've got it all figured out and everyone else is wrong.>>

There ya go! Like (Socrates?) said, the only true knowledge consists in knowing you know nothing.

« Last Edit: March 13, 2004, 07:47:39 pm by thrivetacobell »
Logged
"There is only one success - to be able to spend your life in your own way."
                       Chistopher Morley

penguinsscareme

  • FSP Participant
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 336
  • Ain't nobody's business but mine
    • Free State Project/self-sufficiency living liaison
Re:We're being way too negative
« Reply #25 on: March 13, 2004, 08:16:44 pm »

Don't make the mistake of confusing differences in concrete implementation for differences in principle.  Many here may disagree with how things should work, but only a few disagree philosophically.

This kind of relates to my point, Justin.  What good is a principle if you can't implement it?  I used to have an ideal vision of being so independent that I didn't need anyone at all, I could supply all my own needs to live -- food, shelter, clothing, etc.  But as I began to think about all the things that would be necessary to achieve that, in other words as I pursued the idea to its logical extreme, I realized that I couldn't implement it.
I still cherish the idea, and I believe I can implement half of it, or maybe two thirds, perhaps three quarters, and if I'm lucky maybe ninety percent.  If I dare to dream really big, then maybe ninety-five percent.  But the logical extreme, the pure ideal, is useless to humanity because it is unattainable.  Worthy of pursuit, yes.  Realistically attainable, no.
In other words, there is no such thing as a perfect idea, so there's little to be gained from painting each other into corners over philosophical minutae.  You push far enough, you can find a philosophical difference with anyone.  In fact, I'm sure that I do disagree with you on a very fundamental point of our respective worldviews.  But there's no point in arguing it.  I love liberty, I live it.  I believe in less government.  You agree?  Fine.  Let's keep the conversation short.  We agree on that much, we don't really need to know that much more about each other.

Ever notice that a Reformed Baptist and a Southern Baptist will be more polite to a Hindu than to each other?  It's that 90% thing again.
The Founding Fathers somehow managed to put together a Constitution without the likes of Ayn Rand, or Bastiat, or whatever.  It was all designed to be simple.  They didn't waste time arguing about whether to allow the most extreme forms of self-expression.  Somehow they managed to run a nation without settling whether or not to forbid people to stand on the street corner shouting epithets all day.
I like the Founders.  They weren't simpering intellectuals.  They were realists, who set attainable goals.  So let's take a page out of their book, and instead of working to make things as complicated and stringent as possible, let's work to make them simpler and more accessible.
Let's work for success, not defeat.
Logged
Stamp freestateproject.org on your cash!  Stamp & inkpad run less than $10 & it's the single most effective and easy thing you can do for the fsp.  And it's legal, just don't obscure the serial #.  www.currentlabels.com

Justin

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 686
  • So... these are going to be my neighbors?!
Re:We're being way too negative
« Reply #26 on: March 13, 2004, 11:53:02 pm »

What are you blathering on about?  Your inability to live up to some personal desire to not take advantage of the benefits of division of labor and a modern economy has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

"I believe in less government" means nothing without intellectual backing; every Republican can spout it just as easily.

Freedom accepted as principle--and all that entails--should be the standard here.  So long as FSP members agree on the same principle, we can hash out the implementation details later when we know we have a valid cadre of liberty activists.  What you propose is making members of people with disparate, even conflicting principles who just happen to want the same near-term concrete goals.  Such a plan would sow the seeds of ruin within the FSP and bode ill for the future of New Hampshire.

There are plenty of "freedom leaning" people in NH already; there's no need to move more of them there.  We need libertarian activists, backed by intellectual rigor, to help turn the tide.  

Regarding Rand, Bastiat, et al., it would behoove you to read up on some of these liberty-related primers.
Logged
Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. - Diderot

The Hillbilly

  • FSP Participant
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 46
  • I'm a Hillbilly!
    • Southern Nevada Porcupines
Re:We're being way too negative
« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2004, 12:04:15 am »

Quote
Let's work for success, not defeat.

And that, my friends, should be the last words on any controversy within the FSP.

"Success", very likely the most important single word in relation to the Free State Project.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2004, 02:01:01 am by The Hillbilly »
Logged

Justin

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 686
  • So... these are going to be my neighbors?!
Re:We're being way too negative
« Reply #28 on: March 14, 2004, 01:50:38 am »

Quote
Let's work for success, not defeat.

And that my friends should be the last words on any controversy within the FSP.

"Success", very likely the most important single word in relation to theFree State Project.


Other than sounding pleasant to the unthinking, it's an empty phrase.  The issue at hand is how to work toward success.   Some want us to pad our numbers at any cost, welcoming anyone willing to fill out a web form, so long as they say nice phrases like "I believe in smaller government."  Platitudes and unexamined emotion do not a liberty activist make.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2004, 01:55:16 am by Justin »
Logged
Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. - Diderot

bookish_lass

  • Guest
Re:We're being way too negative
« Reply #29 on: March 14, 2004, 06:12:46 am »

Other than sounding pleasant to the unthinking, it's an empty phrase.  The issue at hand is how to work toward success.   Some want us to pad our numbers at any cost, welcoming anyone willing to fill out a web form, so long as they say nice phrases like "I believe in smaller government."  Platitudes and unexamined emotion do not a liberty activist make.

Neither does purist hot air which is never put into action make a liberty activist.  (Not referring to you, BTW, Justin.)
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6   Go Up