Free State Project Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Down

Author Topic: Why Go West?  (Read 20440 times)

craft_6

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 400
  • Constitutional Libertarian
Re:Why Go West?
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2003, 10:34:53 am »

There seems to be a general perception that Westerners are more independent, and more prepared to tell the federal government to "take a hike" when it oversteps its Constitutional authority.  

Westerners may also be more self-sufficient, and better prepared to live in a society with limited government (although some New Englanders might dispute these claims.)

On pure personal choice, I would rather live in the West, for various reasons.

Yet, I wonder if the FSP, as a pro-liberty political activism project, might be more welcome, and fare better, in the Eastern states, which are more accustomed to political activism, such as Vermont or New Hampshire.

Will residents of Wyoming, Montana, or Idaho who might agree with many of the FSP's goals actively join the fight against big government?  Or will they "live and let live", going on independently with their own lives, thankful if the FSP succeeds in cutting taxes somewhat?  
Logged
Lighting the fires of Liberty, one heart at a time!
http://www.badnarik.org
Badnarik for President, 2004

Zxcv

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1229
Re:Why Go West?
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2003, 11:44:28 am »

Well, you have to look at where we are trying to go, ultimately. We want to end up where people live in the civil sphere rather than the political sphere, where "live and let live" is the norm. I think if the population of the western states are mostly already there, and there are some of us around to keep the statists off their back, that's a good thing. Those who "live and let live" do not need to be convinced of the advantages of doing so.

If everyone if politically active, well that can be a good thing - as long as they are politically active the right way! But if people get in the habit of getting things accomplished via politics, rather than via the market, then you have to wonder...

This is one of those differences between East and West that can be perceived as good or bad, depending on your point of view. Personally, I want to live in a place where the atmosphere is not perpetually charged with politics; where it takes a back seat to other things.
Logged

jgmaynard

  • FSP Shadow Advertising
  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2288
    • The Light of Alexandria
Re:Why Go West?
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2003, 06:00:07 pm »

" I want to live in a place where the atmosphere is not perpetually charged with politics; where it takes a back seat to other things. "

With 20k activists, we are BRINGING politics to the forefront, whether it is there already or not. ;)

JM
Logged
The Light of Alexandria By James Maynard

A history of the first 1,000 years of science, and how it changed the ancient world, and our world today.



http://www.lightofalexandria.com

mactruk

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 85
  • PEACE AND FREEDOM
Re:Why Go West?
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2003, 08:18:26 pm »

  Let me introduce you to the west. I live in NW MT and we are at war, with the feds, with the greens, and with states do nothing GOV.  ITs the east city types that sit around and vote the trend.   To bad I cant show you pictures of your national forests here in MT.  the tree rot and the forest fires and ranger rick at the gate wanting $20 bucks to take a look.  Did you here the latest nfs screw up in these parts - it seems in one of our NF cabins they found a 20 year supply of cannon shells? why?  We dont sit around out west - it would be nice if you big city folk would stop funding enviro groups that claim - its for the children  and save the trees - your money goes to their pension funds.  
Logged

mactruk

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 85
  • PEACE AND FREEDOM
Re:Why Go West?
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2003, 08:20:21 pm »

and law suits to save an ant or a fly.
Logged

Robert H.

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1361
  • Jeffersonian
    • Devolution USA
Re:Why Go West?
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2003, 04:25:01 am »

This is one of those differences between East and West that can be perceived as good or bad, depending on your point of view. Personally, I want to live in a place where the atmosphere is not perpetually charged with politics; where it takes a back seat to other things.

Political polarization also means that the lines between opposing forces are usually going to be more clearly defined and stubborn.  People are less likely to be open to considering change outside of what they're used to because they're too busy holding the party line.  They have more blood, sweat and tears (or family/business interest) invested in their "side," and thus less desire to see that side's clout diminished, or to be thought of as a "traitor."

People who are more laid back may be more likely to consider what you have to say; although, conversely, there may be less of a sense of urgency in their implenting it even if they do agree with you.

A less politically charged environment also gives you more ability to set your own momentum instead of hitching a ride on someone else's train.

jgmaynard

  • FSP Shadow Advertising
  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2288
    • The Light of Alexandria
Re:Why Go West?
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2003, 03:47:32 pm »

" ITs the east city types that sit around and vote the trend."

Let me introduce you to the east.... New Hampshire AIN'T Mass! ;) We have the smallest, least expensive state Government in the country, including Montana. :D

" To bad I cant show you pictures of your national forests here in MT.  the tree rot and the forest fires and ranger rick at the gate wanting $20 bucks to take a look."

I WILL show you pictures of our forests, they are beautiful, wild and free, because we kept the feds out in the first place! ;) Private charities run much of them.

"We dont sit around out west"

I hope not. But keep in mind which candidate state has the most members... ;)

"it would be nice if you big city folk would stop funding enviro groups that claim - its for the children  and save the trees - your money goes to their pension funds.  "

First, cities make up VERY little of NH... Go above Concord, and it is mostly wild with huge tracts of land... The White Mountains are stunning....
And even in our most liberal city, Keene, private charities run 42% of the "public lands". The city runs the rest.

Anyone who thinks NH is like Cape Cod or Boston, doesn't know New Hampshire!

JM
Logged
The Light of Alexandria By James Maynard

A history of the first 1,000 years of science, and how it changed the ancient world, and our world today.



http://www.lightofalexandria.com

BobW

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 453
  • I'm a llama!
Re:Why Go West?
« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2003, 03:20:37 am »

Hi Mactruck,

First, you've got my sympathy and empathy ref the mess you describe in Montana.  What you write causing the mess does need a little more work.

The" feds" represent constituent interests - based on politics.  The "greens" are in existence because of certain constituent support.

The issue you describe isn't geographic.  Now I know what the national press does to mold public opinion such as the water problems "out west". However, even "water problems" occur back East.  Recently Virginia Beach, VA had a water problem. Actually the construction industry obtained the required permits to overbuild with the only obligation being contributions to the politicans approving the issuance.  In the North east, public utility water works are being acquired by foreign companies since they offer to rehabilitate the  delapidated structures and the Northeast is strapped for cash.

"East city types" are just the manifestitation of the issue (the problem?).  Public opinion molding starts in the East (New York City) causing you to see this as a "stupid, if they only really knew Yuppie" matter.  Of course they DON'T know but this is the same for the California types and the rest.  Just remember that broadcast journalism starts in NYC before rippeling out.

What you describe in Montana parallels the real ANWR, Alaska issue, the prohibition of dredging the Hampton Roads, Virginia port for coal exports, and the rest of the national issues in this category.

The environmental wackos and the allied trades such as People For the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) Norfolk, VA (Full disclosure:  I write as SE Regional Director of People for the Ethical Treatment of People - one member only -me!), are funded to influence segments of US voters to do things that industry lobbyists themselves, cannot do in public.  

A law to save a fly, an ant or the snail darter fish in Tennessee probably does some saving.  It also changes the value and price of the land, the resources and the support system.  It is not a coincidence that US coal exports are nominal compared to potential.  If the ANWR riddle is understood, the "out West" forestry industry plugs into the same equation.  

There was an interesting article in the 10-11 (weekend edition) May 03 edition of the FINANCIAL TIMES.  Titled "Bahamas could revitalise Florida gas supply".  A few companies are planning to build some LNG storage facilities in the Bahamas with pipes to Florida.  Most of the planning and OKs  are on schedule.  A major hurdle  concerns possible environmental damage.  The pipelines would pass through some coral reefs and the home of some endangered species (not sure if fish or coral or both, but it's irrelevant).  This Bahamas business project mirrors in all but the timing  of the Montana issue you wrote about.

No one gives a damn about Bahamian coral.  Just follow the money.  It's politics, not economics and too few Americans participate in the public debates.  Industry does and they even finance groups to do things they can't get away with.

If Florida doesn't have arrangements in place for the LPG, the the cost of living in Florida will change.  The cost will not go down, nor remain the same.  Does anyone think it's a coincidence that the Defense Dept only recently established 2 Commands in Florida.  One of them doesn't have a troop population with the family menbers.  This, however, only takes a signature on a document, and presto ..............

Hope to meet you sometime in Big Sky Country.

Again, follow the money.  

BobW    
Logged

Zxcv

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1229
Re:Why Go West?
« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2003, 10:13:58 pm »

Quote
"I want to live in a place where the atmosphere is not perpetually charged with politics; where it takes a back seat to other things. "

With 20k activists, we are BRINGING politics to the forefront, whether it is there already or not.   ;)

Are we? Well, maybe we ought to re-think a bit, what it means to be a freedom activist.

It's commonplace to read about charity being handled out it the west on a personal basis, for example:

Quote
If you do decide to move to Idaho, the first thing you need to do is get the California plates off your cars and other vehicles you bring with you. When I moved there, all of my tires were cut after only four days. They really don't like "Californicaters" Once the California label is removed, You will be "one of the family". The first year I lived there, I was in a ditch during a snow squall near Eagle, and not one single car drove past me. EVERY single car that drove up to me stopped to help me get unstuck. They are the most friendly people on the planet. When I got laid off in the winter from my construction job, I came home to find a full side of cut, frozen, and wrapped beef, and about fifty pounds of corn on my porch with a note that just said, "If someday you can help sombody else out, just do what you can." There was no signature. Idaho is a great place to live.

Charity belongs in the civil sphere, not in government.

What about schools? We are trying ultimately to move away from politics with schools. We want to de-regulate homeschooling and get people to think about picking back up their personal responsibility in this area. The only real progress in schools is not what is happening in the legislatures, but the fact that individual parents, in a very apolitical way, are simply pulling their kids out.

I understand, after reading a lot here, that people do things more in the political sphere back East. It's just different in the West. Our mode of activism would have to be different in the West, too. We might find ourselves putting together a small low-cost private school rather than going door-to-door. Either way works toward freedom, but personally, I prefer the former.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2003, 10:15:26 pm by Zxcv »
Logged

jgmaynard

  • FSP Shadow Advertising
  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2288
    • The Light of Alexandria
Re:Why Go West?
« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2003, 07:18:19 pm »

"With 20k activists, we are BRINGING politics to the forefront, whether it is there already or not.  
 
Are we? Well, maybe we ought to re-think a bit, what it means to be a freedom activist."

Activist means bringing it to the forefront.

"It's commonplace to read about charity being handled out it the west on a personal basis"

Same thing happens here, especially digging each others cars out of snowstorms. We had a big storm here last winter, our neighbors snowblew (?) our driveway, we baked them a loaf of bread.

I think people do that everywhere...

JM

Logged
The Light of Alexandria By James Maynard

A history of the first 1,000 years of science, and how it changed the ancient world, and our world today.



http://www.lightofalexandria.com

Hank

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 334
  • "The Men That Don't Fit In"
Re:Why Go West?
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2003, 11:13:24 am »

Wow!
There is so many state question relevant jewels here in this discussion thread that has remained buried for so long.  How did I overlook this thread!
 ???

From Biddefred:
Quote
Aroostook County is the largest county east of the Mississippi and is the state's bread basket.
Maine's coast meanders for 3000 miles.  The fishing is great.  Both commercial and recreational. Half of all registered Mainers chose no party.  Ross Perot came in second here.  Mainers want change, but the socialists from away have swayed the vote in the cities.  It can be swayed back.
Wow! Aroostook county sounds like a western county with more rain. The best of both worlds!

From RobertH:
Quote
Maine would be my preferred choice if it were necessary to set up shop on the east coast.  It has a substantial international border, substantial coastline, a penchant for "dissension votes" (Ross Perot beat Bush there in 1992), and perhaps mostly importantly, it is farther from the Washington-New York corridor than the other eastern candidates.
Farthest from the Bos-Wash corridor IS an important criteria. Maybe it should be in the spreadsheet too.

From Firefox:
Quote
too many of the GREAT HERD out there do not understand freedom- most "sheeple" are marxists and don't know it --as an example, one group asked if "from each according to his ability to each according to his needs" was in the Constitution, found that about 45% responded "yes".
 For exactly those true reasons we need to get as far away from "the GREAT HERD" as we can.

From Solitar:
Quote
I remember an assertion that mountain people have rarely been conquered. Instead they've either successfully resisted or they've assimilated the invaders. To this day the native mountain people in many regions speak languages which predate invasions and periods when they've supposedly been "conquered". No doubt there are exceptions -- especially where overwhelming force of numbers and technology have been applied. Yet, compared to coastal or flatland dwellers, mountain people have historically been some of the last holdouts.
Those examples he cites apply to well to what Porcupines should seriously consider.

From craft_6:
Quote
There seems to be a general perception that Westerners are more independent, and more prepared to tell the federal government to "take a hike" when it oversteps its Constitutional authority. 
Westerners may also be more self-sufficient, and better prepared to live in a society with limited government (although some New Englanders might dispute these claims.)
Westerners ARE more independent and self-sufficient!

From Zxcv:
Quote
I think if the population of the western states are mostly already there, and there are some of us around to keep the statists off their back, that's a good thing. Those who "live and let live" do not need to be convinced of the advantages of doing so.
Porcupines can do exactly that. Keep the statists off our back. In return we'll back you up and stand beside you. We know what liberty we have and recently lost unlike those who have to be retrained. (to what their great grandparents took for granted).

Also from Zxcv:
Quote
If everyone if politically active, well that can be a good thing - as long as they are politically active the right way! But if people get in the habit of getting things accomplished via politics, rather than via the market, then you have to wonder...
That seems to describe the New Englanders and larger city people.  Westerners would rather turn to each other than to politics and government.

From Maynard:
Quote
From Zxcv:
Quote
" I want to live in a place where the atmosphere is not perpetually charged with politics; where it takes a back seat to other things. "
With 20k activists, we are BRINGING politics to the forefront, whether it is there already or not.
Yikes! Yes, it is a dirty job. But Yikes!  Can you put the tools down when you're done?

From Mactruk:
Quote
Let me introduce you to the west. I live in NW MT and we are at war, with the feds, with the greens, and with states do nothing GOV.  ITs the east city types that sit around and vote the trend.
You can say that again. It's the east AND west city types that sit around and vote the socialist trend. Why? Because they are socialists!

From BobW:
Quote
Now I know what the national press does to mold public opinion such as the water problems "out west". However, even "water problems" occur back East.
...
"East city types" are just the manifestitation of the issue (the problem?).  Public opinion molding starts in the East (New York City) causing you to see this as a "stupid, if they only really knew Yuppie" matter.  Of course they DON'T know but this is the same for the California types and the rest.
 It really is so clear. The east and west coasts against the middle. (I include Chicago with the easterners).

From caseykhan:
Quote
Being landlocked may not necessarily be a huge disadvantage.  Looking at Switzerland and it's geographic position, they have been able to maintain a strong, relatively free economy amidst a sea of national socialism.  Wyoming may be able to do the same.
Yes. The Switzerland of North America!!! ;D
Logged
There's A race of men that don't fit in,
A race that can't stay still;
So they break the hearts of kith and kin,
And they roam the world at will.
http://www.internal.org/view_poem.phtml?poemID=295

Tony Stelik

  • FSP Participant
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 326
  • I'm a rabid individualist
Re:Why Go West?
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2003, 11:20:29 am »

Well, you have to look at where we are trying to go, ultimately. We want to end up where people live in the civil sphere rather than the political sphere, where "live and let live" is the norm. I think if the population of the western states are mostly already there, and there are some of us around to keep the statists off their back, that's a good thing. Those who "live and let live" do not need to be convinced of the advantages of doing so.

If everyone if politically active, well that can be a good thing - as long as they are politically active the right way! But if people get in the habit of getting things accomplished via politics, rather than via the market, then you have to wonder...

This is one of those differences between East and West that can be perceived as good or bad, depending on your point of view. Personally, I want to live in a place where the atmosphere is not perpetually charged with politics; where it takes a back seat to other things.
I thought FSP is going to be politicly active and do the changes using existing political mechanisms? ???
Logged
"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forgive you

Muleskinner

  • Guest
Re:Why Go West?
« Reply #27 on: August 26, 2003, 11:28:46 pm »

Quote
There seems to be a general perception that Westerners are more independent, and more prepared to tell the federal government to "take a hike" when it oversteps its Constitutional authority. 
Westerners may also be more self-sufficient, and better prepared to live in a society with limited government

We are.

Quote
I think if the population of the western states are mostly already there, and there are some of us around to keep the statists off their back, that's a good thing. Those who "live and let live" do not need to be convinced of the advantages of doing so.
We do not need to be convinced. That is why we want the FSP to choose Wyoming. Keep the statists off our back.
Logged

RidleyReport

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3557
Re:Why Go West?
« Reply #28 on: August 27, 2003, 04:19:58 am »

Great post, Robert!  (I'm talking about the original one at the top of this thread, almost a year old now).   I especially appreciate your touching on a subject close to my worry wart:  that of collapse in the U.S.

I've been fretting for a long time that we don't have enough skilled "constructive survivalists" or enough of a disaster preparedness culture apparent within the FSP.  Maybe it will come out later after we're done with this Which State spitting contest and start moving.

Although I agree Wyoming has some advantages over NH in a national nightmare scenario, NH may have some of its own.  

Historically, Wyoming isn't self sufficient at all economically.  Also you can hardly grow a thing there, should the need to grow locally become paramount. If Wyoming wins we'd want a very friendly relationship with fertile Nebraska before facing such eventualities.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2003, 04:28:12 am by Dada Orwell »
Logged
http://RidleyReport.com
http://NHexit.com - If Britain can do it, New Hampshire can do it

RidleyReport

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3557
Re:Why Go West?
« Reply #29 on: August 27, 2003, 04:26:37 am »

Did you guys catch the following prophesy from RobertH last year on this thread:

<<One problem out east that I think is going to begin to rival the water issue out west is the power problem.  The demand for power keeps growing with the cities, and we're not building anything like what we need to keep up with that growing demand.  California may just be a preview of things to come on the east coast. >>
Logged
http://RidleyReport.com
http://NHexit.com - If Britain can do it, New Hampshire can do it
Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Up