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[Able_Reason]

Hi everyone,

I'm new here and I love the idea of a libertarian state.  My wife would never go for the move (I asked her), but I certainly support the cause wholeheartedly.

I'm writing to ask if anyone knows of any liberty-minded groups planning to march in November in the godless Americans march on DC?  I realize that not all libertarians are atheist, I just have a much harder time finding libertarians amoungst atheists than I do finding atheists amoungst libertarians.

I live just west of the DC beltway in VA and I'd like to participate, but so far I've been unable to find any appropriate groups to align myself with.

Thanks for any info, and sorry that my first posting is such a strange question.

I plan to post more often but I work fulltime, I'm taking 7 credit hrs at college, I'm married, and I have a 4 yr old disabled daughter, so I stay pretty busy.

Best regards,

[schm00]

Yes, I'm thinking of going. I'm not sure why, other than that I am in Bethesda - real close to DC. About the only thing that triggered me to want to go was the infamous remarks by Bush senior (when he was president):

Bush: No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.

With people like that leading the nation, I start to tremble a bit...

More about that at this link:

http://www.holysmoke.org/sdhok/aa011.htm

[Able_Reason]

Will you be going just to watch or will you be 'marching' with a group?  From what I've been able to gather it seems that one has to be with a group to 'march', so I'm trying to find an appropriate one.  If you know of one, please let me know.  Thanks!

[schm00]

Will you be going just to watch or will you be 'marching' with a group?  

I haven't decided yet, but if I'm making the trip there I suppose I should participate in the march as well.

From what I've been able to gather it seems that one has to be with a group to 'march'

Why do you say that? I read the info on the web site and while they do encourage local groups to attend, under the Who Can Participate section it says - 'Godless Americans" of all stripes and labels are invited.'

[Stumpy]

What if one percent (about 16,000) of them moved to Kodiak Island or Southwest Texas or the Western UP of Michigan and seceded on the grounds of religious persecution?

Great idea since none of these are FSP target states.

the grounds of religious persecution?

Would their effort hurt or help the FSP?

I don’t know, give it a whirl.  

[Stumpy]

If the Atheist-Utopia thing doesn’t work out, maybe we can try and build a society where government plays no part in religion?

Joe, I promise, if we are successful with the Free State Project, I will not enlist the government to force my religion on you. If anyone else tries, I will oppose them.

[Able_Reason]

Why do you say that? I read the info on the web site and while they do encourage local groups to attend, under the Who Can Participate section it says - 'Godless Americans" of all stripes and labels are invited.'

The site, www.godlessamericans.org doesn't (as far as I've been able to discern) give any instructions on how a solitary person can participate in the march.  I'm not just going to show up and hope that I'm allowed to march with everyone.  I wasn't able to find an email address on the site for posing questions.  I thought if I could find a group to march with, then that would provide me with the structure that I prefer to have in my life.  I'm not really a fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants kind of guy.

I posed this same question on some atheist/agnostic forums and I was severely attacked for preferring to march with politically like minded nontheists.  'It's all about unity and your trying to ruin it and make it about politics' and other phrases like that are what I heard.  I realize that the main focus of the march is about wanting equal rights for nontheists, but if within that large group there are subgroups uniting to march together, then what is the harm in wanting to find the one subgroup that I feel that my views best fit with?

I admit that I have a problem standing up and marching with anti-war greenie-weenies, or with socialist zealots, or even with liberal christians, if it means that someone might mistake me for being one of them, even if we're all marching for the same cause.  Why is it wrong to have ideals and to want to stand by them no matter what?  The 'cause' of equal rights for nontheists, while important to me, doesn't supercede my libertarianism which I feel encompasses this cause.

I wasn't preaching to anyone here, it's just frustrating when you want to support a cause in your own way and you get attacked for it.

[schm00]

The site, www.godlessamericans.org doesn't (as far as I've been able to discern) give any instructions on how a solitary person can participate in the march.  I'm not just going to show up and hope that I'm allowed to march with everyone.  I wasn't able to find an email address on the site for posing questions.

I found this on one of the pages
<snip>
...contact me, Ellen Johnson at 973-334-5110 or preferably by e-mail at ej@atheists.org. ...
<snip>
Maybe shoot her an email and see if you get a response.

I posed this same question on some atheist/agnostic forums and I was severely attacked for preferring to march with politically like minded nontheists.  'It's all about unity and your trying to ruin it and make it about politics' and other phrases like that are what I heard.  I realize that the main focus of the march is about wanting equal rights for nontheists, but if within that large group there are subgroups uniting to march together, then what is the harm in wanting to find the one subgroup that I feel that my views best fit with?

IMO, there are many atheists that for the most part, keep their beliefs to themselves, and believe that others should do the same. In a perfect world, this would be the case. However, due to the evangelical nature of some religions, many followers feel it is their duty to impose their beliefs upon others. I think that part of what the organizers of the march are trying to do involves trying to end government subsidization and eliminate the tax breaks that most religious organizations currently enjoy, and in my view that is a perfectly valid reason to support this march.

[Reaper]

Oh yeah!

Tax them churches!  If they're so interested in public policy and laws let them pay their admission price like everybody else!

Wish I could be there for this.

[Stumpy]

Tax them churches!  If they're so interested in public policy and laws let them pay their admission price like everybody else!

So you also favor expanding government by subjecting more groups and individuals to taxes?

You sound like one of those “hate the rich” types.

[schm00]

So you also favor expanding government by subjecting more groups and individuals to taxes?

I think Reaper was being facetious in his comment, as it is hypocritical in the extreme to allow tax breaks to those who claim exemption because of personal beliefs.

Obviously, I think we are all for a system of lesser (zero for some) taxes for any reason.

[Stumpy]

Obviously, I think we are all for a system of lesser (zero for some) taxes for any reason.

Not all of us.
http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=479;start=0

[schm00]

Not all of us.
http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=479;start=0

I don't want to put words in anyones mouth, but I believe my interpretation of that thread is from a completely different perspective than yours. I was assuming the issues relating to taxing and tax exempt status would be tackled from a top-down sort of approach, which is what I thought Joe was describing.

In other words, we're not getting rid of taxes overnight. Indeed, it will take years and years to repeal all the damage our socialist 'friends' have caused. I gathered that what was being discussed over there was related to minimizing the damage and inequity in most of our current state law, with the assumption that we do intend to try and minimize those taxes which are already in place (if that makes any sense to anyone other than me...).

[Stumpy]

I don't want to put words in anyones mouth

Nor do I. Here is what was said
“No religious or even any "non-profit" should be exempt from any sales, property, income, or other taxes or government imposed user fees.”

It seems clear what is being suggested it to subject more to taxation.

If you wish to “minimize the damage and inequity in most of our current state law”, I suggest taxes be reduced or eliminated anywhere possible. You want to form an Atheist group and get tax except status, go for it.

To suggest to a group (FSP), dedicated to scaling back government, that taxes be increased on some because of “inequity” seems bit petty, don’t you think?

[Reaper]

1) I do not support an income tax.

2) As long as their is such taxation, I do not support special exemptions from taxation for organizations/persons based on their alleged "spiritual" purpose.