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Poll

What best describes your position on moving for the FSP?

I'll go anywhere for the FSP!
- 101 (32.5%)
There are a couple states I won't go to.
- 93 (29.9%)
I'll only go if the selected state is east/west of the Mississippi.
- 38 (12.2%)
There are a few states I'd go to, but that's it.
- 34 (10.9%)
I'll only participate if my favorite state is picked.
- 10 (3.2%)
I haven't decided!
- 35 (11.3%)

Total Members Voted: 288


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Author Topic: Location Requirements (TAKE THE POLL)  (Read 50015 times)

Tony Stelik

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Re:Location Requirements (TAKE THE POLL)
« Reply #75 on: September 10, 2003, 12:01:59 pm »

You did not ansver me if you can easyli influence opinionated locals :(
Did the local grass roots organizations extended hand to FSP?
Do we have the plan of the action in WY?
This questions are important
« Last Edit: September 10, 2003, 12:04:20 pm by Tony Stelik »
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vepope

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Re:Location Requirements (TAKE THE POLL)
« Reply #76 on: September 10, 2003, 12:17:23 pm »

I don't know of any grass roots orgainizations - perhaps because WY history is so strongly pro-liberty that there hasn't been much call for orgainizing to fight it before.  As for the "plan of the action" - it is my understanding that Jason has a basic master plan that will be followed, and it will be used no matter where we move to.  I'm sure some adjustments to fine tune it will be done depending on each state's needs, but that is to be expected.
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Tony Stelik

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Re:Location Requirements (TAKE THE POLL)
« Reply #77 on: September 10, 2003, 12:52:15 pm »

I don't know of any grass roots orgainizations - perhaps because WY history is so strongly pro-liberty that there hasn't been much call for orgainizing to fight it before.  As for the "plan of the action" - it is my understanding that Jason has a basic master plan that will be followed, and it will be used no matter where we move to.  I'm sure some adjustments to fine tune it will be done depending on each state's needs, but that is to be expected.
I am not asking what Jason might have unrevealed. What we all know his plan is to cause to move 20K to the state X.
Those who moved will act on their own.
From that point everything is spontaneous,. and will depend on the activism of the individuals.
For example local organizations in NH have already plans, point by point what needs to be done and they are prepared to help those who will volunteer to run and win the offices. Some grass root organizations like National Tax Payers volunteer training for porcupines running for offices if FSP will elect NH.
Some businesses keep openings for potentially interested porcupines.
Local NH libertarians and other local porcupines are preparing banks of information for newcomers, regarding houses, land for sale, jobs available. There are under consideration different counties and related to those counties political goals and needs.
This kind of activism and plans are crucial for FSP.
Please tell me if such activism is known to you in WY or wherever?
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vepope

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Re:Location Requirements (TAKE THE POLL)
« Reply #78 on: September 10, 2003, 01:39:49 pm »

Crucial????  Not even.   Useful ????  Unarguably.  It looks like a lot of preparation to attempt to lure us there, but the only part that is really of value on the surface is the plan of political actions.  

Holding jobs?  Worthless, unless you know for sure that there are qualified porcupines to fill them.

Banks of data on land sale and homes?  Unnecessary duplication - all of that is already available through realtors.

Jobs available information?  Already exists in a half-dozen different places, including the local papers and state job service offices.

Finally, there is the whole "over 25% bigger" population than what the models are calling for us to effectively influence.  You are totally discounting that because a small number of people are working very hard to make one state look very appealing.  Are you already a resident of NH?  One of those NH porcupines who opted out of every other state?  Should we consider states of over 3 million people if there are 30 there that are working like dogs to gather information that any intelligent person can get on the internet?
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Tony Stelik

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Re:Location Requirements (TAKE THE POLL)
« Reply #79 on: September 10, 2003, 01:59:24 pm »

From your posts I see you disregard planning and preparation. Also activism. I am confused. What is important from your point of view?
As for the population , if there was 3 million libertarians somewhere it would be no problem with that big population the same as I do not have any problem with 1.3 mil. Of easy population in NH. But I do have problem with .5 mil. of difficult population of WY.
NH-ities  will do whatever they do with FSP or without. With FSP the success would be quick and easy. That is why I promote that state.
As to where I am from – that is CT. I was in NH few times though.
And I am glass eater if that was what you’ve asked.
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johnadams

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Re:Location Requirements (TAKE THE POLL)
« Reply #80 on: September 10, 2003, 02:09:00 pm »

Quote
Tony Stelik wrote: Please tell me if such activism is known to you in WY or wherever?

Crucial????  Not even.   Useful ????  Unarguably.  It looks like a lot of preparation to attempt to lure us there, but the only part that is really of value on the surface is the plan of political actions.  

Holding jobs?  Worthless, unless you know for sure that there are qualified porcupines to fill them.

Banks of data on land sale and homes?  Unnecessary duplication - all of that is already available through realtors.

Jobs available information?  Already exists in a half-dozen different places, including the local papers and state job service offices.

Finally, there is the whole "over 25% bigger" population than what the models are calling for us to effectively influence.  You are totally discounting that because a small number of people are working very hard to make one state look very appealing.  Are you already a resident of NH?  One of those NH porcupines who opted out of every other state?  Should we consider states of over 3 million people if there are 30 there that are working like dogs to gather information that any intelligent person can get on the internet?

I'll translate vepope's words so that laconic New Englanders can understand them:


"Nope."
« Last Edit: September 10, 2003, 02:09:58 pm by johnadams »
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vepope

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Re:Location Requirements (TAKE THE POLL)
« Reply #81 on: September 11, 2003, 12:46:35 pm »

Johnadams - you don't need to translate my answers - they are clearly written for anyone to understand.  Second, you quoted one of my posts as if it was a reply to the post you quoted above it, putting it in a totally different context than it was written in.  That is dishonest.
Quote
Tony Stelik wrote: Please tell me if such activism is known to you in WY or wherever?

Crucial????  Not even.   Useful ????  Unarguably.  It looks like a lot of preparation to attempt to lure us there, but the only part that is really of value on the surface is the plan of political actions.  

Holding jobs?  Worthless, unless you know for sure that there are qualified porcupines to fill them.

Banks of data on land sale and homes?  Unnecessary duplication - all of that is already available through realtors.

Jobs available information?  Already exists in a half-dozen different places, including the local papers and state job service offices.

Finally, there is the whole "over 25% bigger" population than what the models are calling for us to effectively influence.  You are totally discounting that because a small number of people are working very hard to make one state look very appealing.  Are you already a resident of NH?  One of those NH porcupines who opted out of every other state?  Should we consider states of over 3 million people if there are 30 there that are working like dogs to gather information that any intelligent person can get on the internet?

I'll translate vepope's words so that laconic New Englanders can understand them:


"Nope."


I stand by what I said.  Further, I pose a question.  What percentage of those NH residents are working to assist porcupines in freeing NH?  Is it 30% of the established voting population?  Or even 20%?  Get provable statistics.  Then, add to that number 20K porcupines, and figure out what percentage of the new total population (adjusted for growth - assuming that natural predicted growth won't necessarily be pro liberty) will be with us.  It is true that we won't be working alone, but if we don't plan for the maximum impact AS IF WE ARE ALONE, we lessen our chance of success - because we can't control how many else we will reach.

WY is not the only state that I like, either.  I like Montana, AK, and SD for the same reasons - low population numbers, low growth expections, and existing liberty - friendly attitudes.

Quote
Tony Stelik wrote: From your posts I see you disregard planning and preparation. Also activism. I am confused. What is important from your point of view?
As for the population , if there was 3 million libertarians somewhere it would be no problem with that big population the same as I do not have any problem with 1.3 mil. Of easy population in NH. But I do have problem with .5 mil. of difficult population of WY.
NH-ities  will do whatever they do with FSP or without. With FSP the success would be quick and easy. That is why I promote that state.

Tony, I do not discount planning, preparation, or activism. However, we can each do our own planning, job hunting, house hunting, etc, in a few hours, and there are no NH business people there who know for sure that the job openings that they have right now are able to be filled by qualified porcupines - unless those jobs are at Burger King or Quick Trip.

As for activism, I do, however, want provable statistics on how much of it there is.  It will make a big difference going into a state like NH, because so many other numbers are already going against us.  We need to see an existing base of 50 to 60% of the established voting population (without us) already being activists on projects we would support, just to be sure of not falling below 50% with the projected growth over the next 5 years.  Can you produce that?
« Last Edit: September 11, 2003, 01:04:10 pm by vepope »
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Tony Stelik

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Re:Location Requirements (TAKE THE POLL)
« Reply #82 on: September 11, 2003, 01:46:09 pm »

Quote
Johnadams - you don't need to translate my answers - they are clearly written for anyone to understand.  Second, you quoted one of my posts as if it was a reply to the post you quoted above it, putting it in a totally different context than it was written in.  That is dishonest.


Actually Johnadams posted honestly. I asked you and first you did not respond directly than you posted your opinion that no activities are needed. That meant no activities are going on in WY or WY camp. Shortly “nope” is what you could post and Johnadams did that for you.


The rest of responce comming
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Tony Stelik

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Re:Location Requirements (TAKE THE POLL)
« Reply #83 on: September 11, 2003, 02:02:47 pm »


Quote

Quote from: johnadams on September 10, 2003, 03:09:00 pm
Quote:
Tony Stelik wrote: Please tell me if such activism is known to you in WY or wherever?
 

Quote from: vepope on September 10, 2003, 02:39:49 pm
Crucial????  Not even.  Useful ?  Unarguably.  It looks like a lot of preparation to attempt to lure us there, but the only part that is really of value on the surface is the plan of political actions.

It is very poor choice of word “lure”. Those who are serious and professional do such easement for new comers. It will be like coming to foreign country, for many of us, and no matter which state will be elected. If somebody is coming to me from Europe I organize such easement myself (job, place for living, transportation etc.)

Quote
Holding jobs?  Worthless, unless you know for sure that there are qualified porcupines to fill them.
If CT was considered for FSP I would hold positions open in the department I surprise. (manufacturing)
And it is very good if somebody would hold the job for me in NH in the case NH is elected.
For what I know I will have to look for the job miles away on the other side of America for long time if WY is elected. I would not have idea today how to organize my moving to WY. Activism of westerners would be a lot of help – unfortunately there is no such a thing, and never will be.


The rest of responce coming
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Tony Stelik

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Re:Location Requirements (TAKE THE POLL)
« Reply #84 on: September 11, 2003, 02:10:40 pm »

Quote
Banks of data on land sale and homes?  Unnecessary duplication - all of that is already available through realtors.

Very helpful. Local orientation. It is different if you live somewhere and you looking for property or house, or you do not know area and rely on internet and newspapers. If local activist help with the search you jumping over the obstruction of not knowing the terrain. If you go to realtors , they might have different objection than you and other porcupines.
Quote
Jobs available information?  Already exists in a half-dozen different places, including the local papers and state job service offices.
I have already address that. Besides I would skip newspapers and agencies when looking for job


More is coming
« Last Edit: September 11, 2003, 02:11:18 pm by Tony Stelik »
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Tony Stelik

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Re:Location Requirements (TAKE THE POLL)
« Reply #85 on: September 11, 2003, 02:35:43 pm »

Quote
Finally, there is the whole "over 25% bigger" population than what the models are calling for us to effectively influence.
I think every contending state meets the population requirements. Some states were dropped out.

Quote
You are totally discounting that because a small number of people are working very hard to make one state look very appealing.
They are called activists. I understand ,you have never head of such thing out west.

 

 
 
Quote
I pose a question.  What percentage of those NH residents are working to assist porcupines in freeing NH?  Is it 30% of the established voting population?  Or even 20%?  Get provable statistics.


Nobody knows correct numbers. NH is the state where independents are most of the time libertarians.
Also in NH everybody is active politically. It is their hobby. Everybody knows Constitution of USA and of NH. It is state “do it yourself in politics”



more coming
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Tony Stelik

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Re:Location Requirements (TAKE THE POLL)
« Reply #86 on: September 11, 2003, 02:52:46 pm »


Quote
Then, add to that number 20K porcupines, and figure out what percentage of the new total population (adjusted for growth - assuming that natural predicted growth won't necessarily be pro liberty) will be with us.  It is true that we won't be working alone, but if we don't plan for the maximum impact AS IF WE ARE ALONE, we lessen our chance of success - because we can't control how many else we will reach.

We will not be alone. We have to work with the local political forces and the population. But in WY we could be alone. That is why I said 1.3 million of easy population is no problem for me but .5 million difficult population is.

Quote
WY is not the only state that I like, either.  I like Montana, AK, and SD for the same reasons - low population numbers, low growth expections, and existing liberty - friendly attitudes.

So do I. I would chose this states if there was no FSP. It would be “running” from socialists and other statists. Since there is FSP I prefer to fight. NH is my strategic choice, for the good of FSP, not personal one

Quote
Tony, I do not discount planning, preparation, or activism. However, we can each do our own planning, job hunting, house hunting, etc, in a few hours, and there are no NH business people there who know for sure that the job openings that they have right now are able to be filled by qualified porcupines - unless those jobs are at Burger King or Quick Trip.

I prefer networking when looking for job and when I am active in politics. Also I would know that I could fill any number of positions in my department with qualified porcupines. Why NH businesses would not be able to do this?
Re Fast Food business, I guess this would be an option in WY?

The rest of the answer I am leaving to more qualified people living in NH.
As for now however I see I do not agree with your post in one sentence.
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johnadams

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Re:Location Requirements (TAKE THE POLL)
« Reply #87 on: September 11, 2003, 03:52:46 pm »

Johnadams - you don't need to translate my answers - they are clearly written for anyone to understand.  Second, you quoted one of my posts as if it was a reply to the post you quoted above it, putting it in a totally different context than it was written in.  That is dishonest.
Quote
Tony Stelik wrote: Please tell me if such activism is known to you in WY or wherever?

Crucial????  Not even.   Useful ????  Unarguably.  It looks like a lot of preparation to attempt to lure us there, but the only part that is really of value on the surface is the plan of political actions.  

Holding jobs?  Worthless, unless you know for sure that there are qualified porcupines to fill them.

Banks of data on land sale and homes?  Unnecessary duplication - all of that is already available through realtors.

Jobs available information?  Already exists in a half-dozen different places, including the local papers and state job service offices.

Finally, there is the whole "over 25% bigger" population than what the models are calling for us to effectively influence.  You are totally discounting that because a small number of people are working very hard to make one state look very appealing.  Are you already a resident of NH?  One of those NH porcupines who opted out of every other state?  Should we consider states of over 3 million people if there are 30 there that are working like dogs to gather information that any intelligent person can get on the internet?

I'll translate vepope's words so that laconic New Englanders can understand them:


"Nope."


I stand by what I said.  Further, I pose a question.  What percentage of those NH residents are working to assist porcupines in freeing NH?  Is it 30% of the established voting population?  Or even 20%?  Get provable statistics.  Then, add to that number 20K porcupines, and figure out what percentage of the new total population (adjusted for growth - assuming that natural predicted growth won't necessarily be pro liberty) will be with us.  It is true that we won't be working alone, but if we don't plan for the maximum impact AS IF WE ARE ALONE, we lessen our chance of success - because we can't control how many else we will reach.

WY is not the only state that I like, either.  I like Montana, AK, and SD for the same reasons - low population numbers, low growth expections, and existing liberty - friendly attitudes.

Quote
Tony Stelik wrote: From your posts I see you disregard planning and preparation. Also activism. I am confused. What is important from your point of view?
As for the population , if there was 3 million libertarians somewhere it would be no problem with that big population the same as I do not have any problem with 1.3 mil. Of easy population in NH. But I do have problem with .5 mil. of difficult population of WY.
NH-ities  will do whatever they do with FSP or without. With FSP the success would be quick and easy. That is why I promote that state.

Tony, I do not discount planning, preparation, or activism. However, we can each do our own planning, job hunting, house hunting, etc, in a few hours, and there are no NH business people there who know for sure that the job openings that they have right now are able to be filled by qualified porcupines - unless those jobs are at Burger King or Quick Trip.

As for activism, I do, however, want provable statistics on how much of it there is.  It will make a big difference going into a state like NH, because so many other numbers are already going against us.  We need to see an existing base of 50 to 60% of the established voting population (without us) already being activists on projects we would support, just to be sure of not falling below 50% with the projected growth over the next 5 years.  Can you produce that?

It seems obvious that Tony Stelik has read the posts by folks from the LPNH talking about the work people in NH have been doing to prepare the way for the FSP and Porcupines, so that the early movers will receive help right from the get-go, so that work on the foundation for the FSP and libertarian infrastructure is built up in prepartion for the later movers, and so the next 15,000 Porcupines after the initial 5,000 will be attracted more quickly, so that the whole project does not peter out before it reaches 20,000 signers. Tony, if I'm wrong and you haven't read the posts from the NH folks on how the work they have done to smooth the way for the FSP, please let me know.

Tony's fair and polite original question to you, VEPope, was (with some edits of mine, to try to help further clarify): "Just tell me if you [Wyoming Porcupines] will be successful in changing [the minds] of the locals into [a] more libertarian [orientation]?"

Tony further explained his question with the following:

"You know that [the WY] locals will at first be more like Republicans, do not you?
No matter WY or NH, we will not do ANYTHING!!! By ourselves. We will need local people. In NH it will be easy. How about WY?"

Instead of answering Tony's question directly and with specifics your next post talked vaguely about "the liberty-friendly orientation of the locals" in Wyoming. It has already been stated repeatedly by many people in these fora, including WY supporters, that no state is already the Free State, so there will need to be some persuading of at least some of the locals in any state, even with the addition of the 20,000 Porcupines. Jason Sorens has talked about this himself. The whole idea of Jason's master plan, according to Jason and others, is for the 20,000 Porcupines, in combination with other libertarian locals, to influence the rest of the people in the chosen state to move the state toward more freedom, and for the success of the Free State to then influence the rest of the nation.

So Tony asked you again, "Did the local grass roots organizations [extend a helping] hand to [the] FSP [yet]?" and "Do we have the plan of the action in WY?"

You answered him briefly by saying "I don't know of any grass roots orgainizations," but then you went on again about how WY is already strongly pro-liberty and how Jason has a master plan that will be used in any FSP state.

Tony then correctly explained Jason's master plan, in response to your comments:

"What we all know his plan is to cause to move 20K to the state X.
Those who moved will act on their own.
From that point everything is spontaneous, and will depend on the activism of the individuals."

And Tony then further explained what he is asking by saying, "Please tell me if such activism is known to you in WY or wherever?" In other words, Tony is not just asking if you know of any "grass roots organizations" in WY, he is asking if you know if there is ANY effort AT ALL in WY to help prepare the way for the FSP.

Once again you did not answer Tony's question, but instead picked at some of his comments.

I became frustrated by your failure to directly answer Tony's question, so I summarized your vague and tangential response with the word, "Nope," that I think neatly translates into direct and clear language what your answer is to the gist of Tony's questions (Do you know if there is ANY effort AT ALL in WY to help prepare the way for the FSP?).

Instead of either agreeing or disagreeing with my summation of your responses, you went on to criticize my post by claiming that my clipping of quotes for purposes of brevity and clarity "is dishonest." Would you PLEASE answer Tony's questions directly and with more than just a brief quip before moving on to your arguments for WY and against NH? If you disagree with my summary of your response, would you please give a clear, full and direct answer to the question of what, if any, efforts you know of are being made in WY to prepare the way for the FSP? Your claim that I am being dishonest would be a lot more convincing if you would answer Tony's questions clearly and directly.

VE wrote: "...I pose a question.  What percentage of those NH residents are working to assist porcupines in freeing NH?  Is it 30% of the established voting population?  Or even 20%?  Get provable statistics.  Then, add to that number 20K porcupines, and figure out what percentage of the new total population (adjusted for growth - assuming that natural predicted growth won't necessarily be pro liberty) will be with us.  It is true that we won't be working alone, but if we don't plan for the maximum impact AS IF WE ARE ALONE, we lessen our chance of success - because we can't control how many else we will reach."

I don't have statistics on this for NH or any state and I am not aware that they exist for any state. Do you have such statistics for any state? I would be interested in them if you do have them, though I think the more important thing is what sort of actual work is being done and will be done than these percentage statistics--but we may have to agree to disagree on that.

There is already pro-FSP activism in NH, now. If WY is as libertarian as you claim, why aren't we hearing about even more activism in WY? Are people just not telling us about it or does it not exist?
« Last Edit: September 11, 2003, 03:57:23 pm by johnadams »
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DadELK68

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Re:Location Requirements (TAKE THE POLL)
« Reply #88 on: September 11, 2003, 04:07:24 pm »

As for activism, I do, however, want provable statistics on how much of it there is.  It will make a big difference going into a state like NH, because so many other numbers are already going against us.  We need to see an existing base of 50 to 60% of the established voting population (without us) already being activists on projects we would support, just to be sure of not falling below 50% with the projected growth over the next 5 years.  Can you produce that?

vepope, I agree with adams response - I don't think you'd be able to get 'provable statistics' like these numbers for any state in question - if even 30% of the population of any state were 'activists on projects we would support', the Free State would already exist.

Almost by definition, 'activists' are always a relatively small segment of the population; remember that at the time of the American Revolution the population was roughly divided into thirds - 1/3 for independence, 1/3 loyalists, 1/3 not wanting to be bothered. If you take that 1/3 in favor of independence, a much smaller fraction might be considered 'activists' - making changes in their lives to support the cause, even going so far as to try to convince others to join and having family members participate in the Continental Army (which constantly had problems with high rates of desertion, soldiers slipping away and going home before their term of enlistment was over).

Someone (such as Jason) probably has more accurate numbers, but I would suspect that if you looked at the percentage of 'activists' (according to the standards we're seeking) who were supporting independence in the Revolutionary War, it would be around or less than 10% of the total population. The other 20% in favor who supported them were probably much less 'activist', by our standards.

Even within this forum, it's evident that some are activists with the goal of demonstrating and spreading freedom, while some are only activists to the extent that they don't want to be bothered, they just want to be left alone.

If you sift through the many threads on this forum you'll see lots of numbers and many debates about 'provable statistics', their accuracy, validity and interpretation. This isn't to say that they aren't vital, but at this point what you see here is pretty much what's available - comparisons of past votes, proxy measures of underlying cultural inclinations. From there, the interpretation of the data is based on various combinations of experience and bias.

In my opinion, the data shows that while there is a strong underlying current for 'freedom' in much of the West, it's predominantly from a Conservative, rather than small-L libertarian, culture. Those states which have reasonable climates and economic strengths are attracting immigrants/refugees from the more statist states, many of whom are moving for economic reasons and many of whom are moving for reasons related to 'freedom' to varying degrees.

The same thing is happening in NH, except that the underlying culture is more small-l libertarian than it is conservative. The large numbers of 'Independents' in New England tend to mostly be 'fiscal conservatives, social liberals' - in other words, small-l libertarian. The reason various candidates do better or worse with this group has a lot to do with which issues seem most predominant - a pro-tax liberal doesn't get far in NH, but neither does a rabidly pro-life conservative. An anti-tax, pro-choice, pro-freedom candidate does very well, if they can get through the primary process with the more extreme bases of their respective parties.

Bottom line - be realistic, and try to be fair. Don't ask of NH or anyone else what you can't produce for WY or any of your other more favored states. Even if someone came up with some data indicating >50% of NH voters strongly favor various things on our agenda, I suspect you would dismiss it with claims that you fear being overwhelmed by statist immigrants.

Consider the numbers Jason used to arrive at the 20k number, and consider NH vs WY or the other Western states. In NH, elections have been closer between Dems and Repubs, with a high percentage of Independents as the 'swing voters'. Much of the reason for these close races goes back to what I just said - by the time a Dem or Repub makes it through their primary, they've had to appeal to the more extreme conservative or liberal voters who make up the base of their party, and the winners on both sides are largely distasteful to the large block of Independents.

However, in the North East when you get a relatively social liberal/fiscal conservative who manages to get through the primaries, they tend to be very popular and successful - Craig Benson, Mitt Romney, Rudy Giuliani (remember, I said relatively).

If 20k 'activists' come to NH and join with the small-l libertarians who already active in the NH Libertarian party, approach domination of the NH Republican party and do dominate the registered Independents, that will lead to >50% support for many changes (somewhat incrementally) on our agenda, through whichever party (or parties) works best.

Contrast that to many of the Western states which may be overwhelmingly dominated by Republicans, with the party controlled by social conservatives - and it's a much more difficult fight from the first round, because even if you have a greater percentage of Porcupines to population there is a greater percentage in the underlying population which will be resistant to the Porcupine agenda.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2003, 04:32:27 pm by DadELK68 »
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johnadams

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Re:Location Requirements (TAKE THE POLL)
« Reply #89 on: September 11, 2003, 04:07:42 pm »

It is very poor choice of word “lure”. Those who are serious and professional do such easement for new comers. It will be like coming to foreign country, for many of us, and no matter which state will be elected. If somebody is coming to me from Europe I organize such easement myself (job, place for living, transportation etc.)

Quote
Holding jobs?  Worthless, unless you know for sure that there are qualified porcupines to fill them.
If CT was considered for FSP I would hold positions open in the department I surprise. (manufacturing)
And it is very good if somebody would hold the job for me in NH in the case NH is elected.
For what I know I will have to look for the job miles away on the other side of America for long time if WY is elected. I would not have idea today how to organize my moving to WY. Activism of westerners would be a lot of help – unfortunately there is no such a thing, and never will be.


The rest of responce coming

That is an excellent example, Tony. While help at the destination is more crucial for international migration, it is still also crucial for a mass migration within a nation--especially for those who will be moving great distances and are unfamiliar with the state they are moving to. This is so obvious that I do not know why someone is arguing this point with you.

I am familiar with how local immigrant groups help new immigrants to get situated in their new country and how they attract more migrants in this way and by communicating with people in the old country. Word spreads that people and groups in a certain city or town are very helpful in getting new immigrants situated and more people are thus attracted to that area. Usually, this involves earlier immigrants helping out later immigrants from the same national and/or ethnic background.

The same sort of thing will need to be done by native Porcupines, early movers, and their allies in the destination state if the FSP is to succeed. It is very disturbing that some people in these fora do not even recognize the importance of this.
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