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Author Topic: Wyoming view from a Wyoming Rancher  (Read 15976 times)

ZionCurtain

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Wyoming view from a Wyoming Rancher
« on: July 04, 2003, 05:56:57 pm »

Dear Free State Project people:

I was recently given a link to your project by a friend, who thought I would
be interested in it. They were right -- I am. I think it is a very good
idea, and it has a lot of honorable qualities. But after reading your
on-line documentation and some of the message boards, I have some serious
concerns with your, shall we say, "naivety".

I cannot help but notice that my home state, Wyoming, shows up first in your
feasibility studies. And, having traveled and lived in many states of the
union, find it to be a correct evaluation. Wyoming is one of the few states
where people still take pride in individual freedom and self-sufficiency
over government regulation and handouts (outside of Cheyenne, which is a
suburb of Denver). That is the prime reason I decided to make my permanent
home here. The beautiful and varied terrain, clean air and water, and
decent, honest folk who are always there to give a hand.

I can't speak for the city folk (which, fortunately, the terrain and
environment keeps to a minimum), but...

The main reason the way Wyoming is the way it is, is because the people here
love their freedom, their land and their state. I was quite appalled at the
attitude I found in some of the FSP posts where you want to come in and
"take over" my state, and impose your own system on it. (But understand that
your ideas are pretty much EXACTLY what the people of rural Wyoming would
want of government, but it is the ATTITUDE that is intolerable.) Several
points:

1) You are judged here BY your attitude, not your words. If you don't WANT
to be here, then stay home. If you come here and start bad-mouthing the
land, the weather, the people or our state, then you won't last long. Being
mostly small towns, word gets around fast.

2) If you're a big city person, you probably won't like Wyoming cities,
which are just big towns. In Wyoming, we call a stream a "river" if you
can't jump over it, and a town a "city" if it has a Wal-Mart. Big city folk
WILL be disappointed, and be unhappy, and then try to make everyone else
unhappy, and your neighbors won't tolerate that for long. Take the next bus
back to Denver, where you belong, in the traffic, pollution and crime.

3) You'd better NOT be afraid of guns. I believe Wyoming and Montana have
the highest per-capita gun ownership in the Union. The further from the
cities you get, the more common it is to see people carrying rifles and
wearing gunbelts. I do. We still have a lot of native wildlife to deal with,
and the first time you are out by yourself and run across a pack of hungry
coyotes... you'll understand.

4) I got a good laugh out of you using government statistics to rate the
most anti-government state in the Union! I'll let you in on a little
secret... there are a lot more people in Wyoming than the statistics show.
The country folk figure that the less people the government knows about, the
fewer flunkees they will appoint to tell them what to do. The 2000 Census
was lucky if they got 60% of the people to respond; most of whom were
outraged with the governments intrusion into their private lives and affairs
by those nosey census forms.

Note that if you do this right... those hundred-thousand or so
"unaccountable" people would be standing with you, for they share the same
ideaology that you do.

5) Respect privacy. Folk love to chat and gossip for hours on end, but if
you come nosin' around where you don't belong (like governments do), expect
to sniff a fist. You respect a person's privacy, and they will respect yours
(hunters from Colofornia excluded). I mention this because the "intrusive"
nature of your project can well be seen as an extreme act of invasion of
privacy.

FYI: "Colofornia" is the name of the State to our south, once known as
Colorado, but is now the District of California (the West's "D.C."). For the
easterners who might not understand... Californians pretty much bought up
most of Colorado, and are doing the same thing you want to do, but from
another premise -- move into the State, and change it to a Socialist Utopia.

6) Education is among Wyoming's biggest disasters. The State spends millions
on education and schools -- then has to close them, because there aren't
enough kids in the area to keep them open. You will find dozens of
abandoned, brand-new schools all over the state. Lots of good intentions,
but not managed well. Private and home schooling are becoming more and more
popular in the outlying areas. (Parents in cities even bus their kids to
small towns, because the education is much better with the smaller class
sizes and "local" teachers, who have common sense and practical experience).

Make no mistake that most people in Wyoming would love to see much of the
existing government replaced, particularly at the city and county levels
where the commissioners and judges are as corrupt as can be found outside of
Taxachusetts. There are actually many officials at the state level that
would jump right on board with FSP, because they, themselves, are ranchers
and rural folk, and know what both a "free life" and "hard work" is. It is
due mainly to their efforts, that the feds have been kept at bay for as long
as they have. Overall, we have a pretty good state government -- but that
can't be said of the municipal corporations, however.

Now if you show up in our borders with that "we're coming into your state,
taking over and changing it to a Liberatian Utopia", you won't have to worry
about the government stopping you... the people will. And if that is the
attitude you arrive with, I'll be one of those people behind the barrel
asking you to leave. Like most Wyomingites, I will protect my home, family
and neighbors from all invaders, foreign and domestic. And if 20,000 fellow
Citizens show up in this state as an invading army, you will be treated as
such, and expelled.

And you also need to take great care, because if the government wants you
out, they can EASILY do it, based on the way you have structured things.
Wyoming's livelihood comes from its natural resources. All they would have
to do is to tell Marathon Oil to shut down a few of its facilities, and
unemployment would skyrocket, and FSP would be blamed (and with the liberal
media coming from Denver, you can count on that).

Even in other States, the first thing that will happen is that the IRS will
pull your tax-exempt status to cut you off financially. The government can
also revoke your corporate charter (you exist only with their permission).

I know it may sound a bit "doom and gloom"-ish, but it is the practical
reality. You may have addressed these points in other forums; there is a
great deal to read, and I have not yet read it all.

I also notice the extensive research done on the states, with research
tabulated in spreadsheets. (Very nicely done, BTW). Have you done similar
research on your membership? Personal bias is a major factor in your chances
of success, and I have not seen any information on it. A single,
highly-motivated person is worth a thousand "me too" people, who will
volunteer for a lot of stuff, but not actually do anything (I have a lot of
experience with this in my charitable work--people get moved by the moment,
then use any excuse to get out of it). A person who moves to Wyoming, and
falls in love with the state and people, will not only be running for every
open office but will most likely WIN, and be respected by thousands of
others, whereas someone doing it because "they said they would", doesn't
stand a chance.

I also question the viability of your voting system, which I went over in
detail. But since that is not concerned with Wyoming, I will not comment
here.

I hope you take this message in the spirit it is offered; I think you folks
have quite an excellent idea here, and being on the "inside" of your
top-running state, I hope my commentary may keep you from hitting a brick
wall at 90 mph.

Bruce P. Foreman, Midgard Ranch
Wyoming Territorial Republic
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ZionCurtain

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Re:Wyoming view from a Wyoming Rancher
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2003, 05:58:31 pm »

Point #4 is something to really think about. Already 100,000 like minded individuals there. I think we could win some seats in the State real quick.
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ZionCurtain

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Re:Wyoming view from a Wyoming Rancher
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2003, 10:15:27 am »

Have we heard more from this fellow?
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Kelton Baker

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Re:Wyoming view from a Wyoming Rancher
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2003, 10:19:49 am »

Quote
Have we heard more from this fellow?

Yes, go look at the state at a glance thread.  We have  a whole long thread on this fellow, and a long back-and-forth by Zack Bass about how this came across as a threat against the FSP.
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Karl

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Re:Wyoming view from a Wyoming Rancher
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2003, 10:25:34 am »

Have we heard more from this fellow?

Yes.  His parting words were:

Vote New Hampshire. Please.

Read the thread.  He couldn't handle Zack Bass's "extremism."  I suspect he is much like other Wyomingites -- very conservative , and not very tolerant of people who want to change things.
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ZionCurtain

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Re:Wyoming view from a Wyoming Rancher
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2003, 10:28:34 am »

Have we heard more from this fellow?

Yes.  His parting words were:

Vote New Hampshire. Please.

Read the thread.  He couldn't handle Zack Bass's "extremism."  I suspect he is much like other Wyomingites -- very conservative , and not very tolerant of people who want to change things.
I think he said if you are a rude person and inconsiderate of others then pick NH.
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pond

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Re:Wyoming view from a Wyoming Rancher
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2003, 10:34:02 am »

I think he said if you are a rude person and inconsiderate of others then pick NH.
Which is interesting considering we're all moving to wherever it is that wins, not to where we voted for. Considering that it'd probably be best to go where they welcomed the entire project without reserve.
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Zack Bass

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Re:Wyoming view from a Wyoming Rancher
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2003, 10:51:13 am »


"Now if you show up in our borders with that "we're coming into your state,
taking over and changing it to a Liberatian Utopia", you won't have to worry
about the government stopping you... the people will. And if that is the
attitude you arrive with, I'll be one of those people behind the barrel
asking you to leave. Like most Wyomingites, I will protect my home, family
and neighbors from all invaders, foreign and domestic. And if 20,000 fellow
Citizens show up in this state as an invading army, you will be treated as
such, and expelled."

Bruce P. Foreman, Midgard Ranch


This is not the only threat of physical violence that has come from Wyomingites.  They are already a little bit freer than most of the U.S., but the problem is, see, the problem is that they think they have exactly enough Freedom already, and they won't tolerate any more.  We will have a much better chance of repealing the odious Victimless Crime Laws in New Hampshire, or even in Montana, than in Wyoming.
We can take over Wyoming, if we go County by County, attracting more and more Porcupines; but there will be bloodshed.  Not a good way to go.

Another Wyomingite, Hank Hill, has threatened me personally if I come to Wyoming and try to repeal their existing Victimless Crime Laws, and he has twice stated that I am a Liar because I said he opposes legalization of drugs.  Funny thing... in both of those accusatory posts, he reiterated that he was in favor of legalizing marijuana, but he would imprison or otherwise harm a heroin dealer.  I rest my case.

None of these Wyomingites owns Wyoming any more than we do.  We are the group that is the most respectful of their property rights... but their property rights do not extend beyond their own property.  When we own property in Wyoming, we have exactly as much right to be there and enact our reforms as any long-time resident.  The Wyomingites do not see it that way.

Listen to these wise ranchers:  Stay away from Wyoming!!!

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Zxcv

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Re:Wyoming view from a Wyoming Rancher
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2003, 10:56:39 am »

Interesting how you have such a reliable understanding of the thinking of Wyoming citizens, on the basis of a few forum contacts, Zack. Maybe you'll tell us how you do that some time.
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Dalamar49

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Re:Wyoming view from a Wyoming Rancher
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2003, 10:57:55 am »

I concur with Zack. Western attitudes (or at least what I assume to be Western attitudes) really kill my buzz and make me want to leave the West.

That's why I can't stand Nevada either. Its that whole, "Oh no, we can't change!" attitude that gets me steaming.

Oh course I can only assume Western attitudes (and those in Nevada) I most definetely can't say everyone in WY is that way....hopefully they're not.  ???
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Karl

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Re:Wyoming view from a Wyoming Rancher
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2003, 11:11:01 am »

Interesting how you have such a reliable understanding of the thinking of Wyoming citizens, on the basis of a few forum contacts, Zack. Maybe you'll tell us how you do that some time.

Zxcv, your own interactions with Wyomingites recently, as posted in this thread don't exactly bode well.

The gentleman from Riverton told you, "I can't agree with your whole program."  Well what programs does he NOT agree with?  I'm guessing he opposes repealing any victimless crime laws.  Am I right?

At the end of your report, you brush aside your apparently not-so-great reception by the natives, concluding it'll be probably be just as bad in any state.

Our experience has shown NH natives to be far more welcoming.

« Last Edit: July 05, 2003, 11:12:57 am by Karl »
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Zack Bass

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Re:Wyoming view from a Wyoming Rancher
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2003, 11:14:30 am »


Interesting how you have such a reliable understanding of the thinking of Wyoming citizens, on the basis of a few forum contacts, Zack. Maybe you'll tell us how you do that some time.


That is not the only thing I base this on.  Well, it's the only thing I base the specific Wyoming thing on, that is true.  But I have talked to more than one person who has traveled to Montana, and they got a similar impression from talking to the average residents.  They are very conservative and will not change; although, unlike the Wyomingites, the Montanans have not offered Violence toward us if do try to change things.  Of course, they're friendly as hell toward people who pretend to be just like them.  Like people almost everywhere in the world.  The important thing is, how do they treat those who are Different?  Because, believe me, if there's one thing we know about libertarian types, we are different.

I can get along just fine where I am, by "going along".  I know how to work the system here.  I could do the same in Wyoming... but WHY SHOULD I MOVE FOR THAT??  A man shouldn't have to live like that.  I want to go where we can build a society that accepts all kinds, not just "folks like us".  I don't want to end up tied to a fence outside Laramie.

If you know something about Wyoming that indicates that these few guys are the exception, by all means let us know.  The only Wyomingite I have heard from who isn't like that has stated that all of his neighbors are like that; he begs us to come there to give him some support!

If you want to blend in with the Natives, move to Wyoming.  Or better yet, stay where you are, if you're willing to blend in; it's less disruptive.  If you want to be yourself and Free, without having to shoot anyone, stay the hell away from Wyoming.  We have lots of guns, but theirs are bigger.

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Zack Bass

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Re:Wyoming view from a Wyoming Rancher
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2003, 11:37:33 am »


Interesting how you have such a reliable understanding of the thinking of Wyoming citizens, on the basis of a few forum contacts, Zack.


Here's another thing that convinces me that Wyoming is a bad place for Porcupines:

"If we're arrogant, we will do poorly."

That is what you said about Wyoming recently.  Okay, we are arrogant, and therefore we will do poorly in Wyoming.  Let's go to New Hampshire or Montana, where arrogant people can be Free.

I don't see how you're going to sell Wyoming to anyone this way.  The pussies who are not repulsed by being told "don't be arrogant" are too timid to move to such a harsh place, and the arrogant ones now know that they will not do well in Wyoming.  So who's gonna vote for Wyoming if this gets out?


Personally, I still prefer Montana; we can easily move in Majorities in several Counties and have Freedom NOW!! right away in those Counties (without bloodshed), thereby attracting many more Procupines who will be able to take over the whole State.  New Hampshire is more welcoming, but you can't achieve Freedom merely by taking over a County there, like you can in Montana.  Control of a Town in New Hampshire can give you some Freedom, but it's hard to move an extra couple of thousand people into a Town: they have Zoning Laws and whatnot, and you can't just roll in a trailer and set up housekeeping the way you can in Montana.

« Last Edit: July 05, 2003, 11:39:16 am by Zack Bass »
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StevenN

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Re:Wyoming view from a Wyoming Rancher
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2003, 12:37:01 pm »

Quote
I could be off-base, but I got a certain "vibe" from this Wyomingite. Now, I believe that the people of NH and WY are probably equal in terms of "friendliness" (both very friendly). But I had a feeling that, in order for Wyomingites to listen to porcupines, a great deal of "conformity" needed. Meaning, "hey, I'll take your ideas to heart, and consider your propositions, but only if you are 'one of us'". Not that they'd be hostile, but that, if you're too "different" (not gritty and cowboy-esque), they won't consider what you have to say and generally ignore you. A rural westerner may feel quite comfortable in that type of environment. But as someone who's a bit quirky and doesn't really fit that mold, I would not only feel "uncomfortable", but I feel that Wyomingites wouldn't really hear what I'd have to say. Even if I did conform, I'd be worried that, if I happen to not present the ideas in freedom in just the right light, my activism would fail. Basically, I feel like it would be like walking a tightrope.

Now, I contrasted this to how I percieved the "people" of NH from NH natives. I found people that were not only friendly, but seemed to be very accepting of people for who they were. Not to mention, all the positive/neutral comments about the FSP from NH papers. Whenever I heard about people talking about the FSP to NH natives, the comments tended to be along the lines of being welcome (no one seemed to even think of the FSP as an "invasion") and successful. Lots of these comments came from people next door in VT and MA.


The more I find out about the WY people, the less I like it as a choice for the free state. I see citizens who - if not politically conservative - are "philosophically conservative", i.e unwilling to accept change. If the FSP were an anti-federal gov't Conservative project, WY would be best. But I am know more firmly convinced than ever that the people of WY will not accept our opposition to victimless crimes; which I think are the biggest issues for porcupines other than education. Sure Wyomingites would happily join us in trying to stand up to the fed (but would fail due to WY lack of leverage). As said before, Wyomingites seem happy with the freedom they have.
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Ceol Mhor

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Re:Wyoming view from a Wyoming Rancher
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2003, 12:43:17 pm »

Zack, we are not arrogant; you are arrogant. And one need not be arrogant, abrasive, or inflammatory to spread libertarian ideals. Freedom philosophy can only succeed when it is founded on knowledge and understanding - not browbeating or intimidation.

This rancher is basically saying "if you waltz onto my ranch and tell me what I have to do, I'll make you regret it." For cripes sake, how much more libertarian can you get? We don't want to go some place where the population will meekly accept whatever we tell them - because they would then meekly accept what anyone else told them too. We want a place where the population is intelligent and views change with a critical eye. Because freedom IS the best system for society, we will be able to show these people that what we propse will benefit them. Their critical nature will then prevent them from flip-flopping when Hillary promises them some inane socialist tripe.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2003, 12:44:53 pm by Ceol Mhor »
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