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Author Topic: FSP could be great but...  (Read 21279 times)

Elizabeth

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2003, 02:28:19 pm »

Quote
Elizabeth wrote:
Quote
Quote from: Steve on Today at 02:20:34am
one (at least) is an atheist with Buddhist leanings
Hey, is that me?    If not, we have 2 who fit that description.
No, me.  And I'm unsuccessfully trying to avoid the conclusion that meat is murder, or at least immoral, which may be how you ended up in PETA.  Religious people can divide animals into two groups: those with souls (just us, coincidentally) and those without (everybody else), with those without okay to eat or use as we see fit.  But the more you study human "psychology" and animal "behavior", the more you find we have in common, and not just with our little brothers the chimps:
http://www.fundwildlife.org/crows.html
http://www.google.com.ru/search?q=corvid+intelligence+tool

Amen to all that.  I was a strict vegetarian for years and years, but couldn't keep my weight down, so I went on Atkins, lost 20 lbs, and that was the end of vegetarianism.   :P

I am not sure yet how to reconcile my omnivore and carb-sensitive physiology with my ethics, except that now we're moving to Ann Arbor, I'll have access to free-range, humanely-treated, and kosher meats.

But I am currently intrigued by African Grey parrots and their intelligence, interesting you brought up the corvid references.
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Steve

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2003, 06:19:11 pm »

One of the articles I read about corvids mentioned that African Grey parrots have the intelligence of a three-year-old child.  It's pretty hard to imagine that killing them is okay.

About Atkins and vegetarianism, my belief, as always, is that our evolutionary past suggests the answer.  You've read "Guns, Germs, and Steel", so you know that carb-rich food sources are very new, developed by civilized man only in the last 10K years.  We haven't fully adapted to them, particularly visible in ethnic groups that acquired them more recently, e.g. diabetes is more prevalent amongst native Americans.  So, I recommend a moderate version of the "paleo-diet" (lots of books and stuff on the web about it).  You eat only foods, or types of foods, that were available to our ancestors 20K years ago.

To address the above-mentioned moral conflict, I would modify the paleo-diet, to eat fewer higher life forms (mammals) and more lower life forms (fish, eggs), and a lot more nuts and seeds.  Nuts are great, too bad I'm allergic to most of them. :(
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Jack Harrison

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2003, 09:34:24 pm »

Quote
The FSP is an effort to create a free state.  For that, we need only liberty-oriented people.  Why then should it matter what color or gender our members are so long as they are liberty-oriented?
An example of judging people not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.  Some people just don't get it.

I recently saw Matrix Reloaded.  Did it really bother Americans that the human rebels were hugely disproportionately non-white, especially black?  I suspect audiences cared more that the rebels were rebels.

BOTHER anyone? Probably just you. I never even noticed what color anyone in the movie was. Would never have occured to me to keep score or to even take informal notice. What BOTHERS me is that some people feel the need to keep score like that. The world is not so black and white as you might think it is.
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RhythmStar

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2003, 09:43:50 pm »

The world is not so black and white as you might think it is.

No kidding!  

My side:  Apache, Cherokee, French, Finn

Wife's side:  Blackfoot, African, Portuguese, German, Irish

So, our kids are purebred Americans, far as I can tell.  :)

Hope one of them (we have a boy and a girl) marries an Asian.  I'd hate to leave anyone out of the family tree.  LOL

RS
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BobW

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2003, 10:36:55 pm »

Hi Rhythm Star,

Appreciate the family breakdown to illustrate the point.

I once made and issue - and won  at the inital levels on a government ethnic category.

I believe it is still floating around: "Asian -Pacific Islander".  

The Czar had more Pacific islands than the King of Fiji and the Queen of Hawaii, combined! Yes, decendents from these Russian islands, less eg Alutes, are not part of the national designation.

So much for accuracy!

BobW
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JasonPSorens

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« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2003, 11:02:10 am »

One of the reasons I'm a libertarian is that I grew up in a single-parent, urban household with an income below the poverty line.  Even after all the depredations of socialism and the crowding out of voluntary solutions to poverty, there is enough opportunity in America to pick yourself up - with the help of family, friends, and charity.  My mother never took government welfare, but we made it.  We all went to private school because she taught there.  A Christian charity bought us a house.  My grandparents helped us while my mother got her degree so that she could teach.  I won a private scholarship to go to an elite private college.  Now, I admit, the first three years I was in college I took a $100 federal government grant.  My mother insisted on it.  But senior year, I decided I had to retain my ethics, and I refused the grant. ;)  Of course, I also applied for an NSF grant in grad school (didn't get it), so I'm not exactly morally pure, I guess! :P  But I simply have no patience for those who say, "What about group X?  They can certainly never make it on their own in a libertarian society!"  People who say that have no idea what it takes to "make it."
« Last Edit: June 16, 2003, 11:03:57 am by JasonPSorens »
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scottrk29

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2003, 11:37:46 am »

           Jason I believe anyone can make it in a libertarian society but I think this libertarian society needs to be established for a while before the socialistic programs that are used are market corrected ( private services that even the poor can take advantage of with private charitable help).Until the market correction happens only the wealthy will be able to ensure their offspring will receive the services that are necessary( children with learning and developmental disabilities). If I am mistaken on this issue please give me some insight how these areas can be fixed in a limited amount of time so that those of us who do face these issues could join now and participate to make the changes that will eventually would be better for our children in the long run. Thanks.
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Karl

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2003, 11:45:36 am »

Quote
The FSP is an effort to create a free state.  For that, we need only liberty-oriented people.  Why then should it matter what color or gender our members are so long as they are liberty-oriented?
An example of judging people not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.  Some people just don't get it.

I recently saw Matrix Reloaded.  Did it really bother Americans that the human rebels were hugely disproportionately non-white, especially black?  I suspect audiences cared more that the rebels were rebels.

BOTHER anyone? Probably just you. I never even noticed what color anyone in the movie was. Would never have occured to me to keep score or to even take informal notice. What BOTHERS me is that some people feel the need to keep score like that. The world is not so black and white as you might think it is.

I think Steve was making the point that what really mattered to people was that the rebels were rebels, not that they were black or white, i.e. he agrees with you.
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Jack Harrison

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2003, 06:47:15 am »

Maybe you are correct, but I got hung up on the fact that he noticed in the first place. Its a pet peeve of mine that the folks who want the world to be colorblind are typically the ones that do.

It would never have dawned on me that the people in Matrix Reloaded (which stunk by the way) were different colors.
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Karl

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2003, 10:17:49 am »

Maybe you are correct, but I got hung up on the fact that he noticed in the first place. Its a pet peeve of mine that the folks who want the world to be colorblind are typically the ones that do.

It would never have dawned on me that the people in Matrix Reloaded (which stunk by the way) were different colors.

Well, we should strive to be "colorblind" with regards to equal rights and fairness, but denying race exists seems silly.

Perhaps The Matrix made up for Minority Report.  Despite the movie's title, there were a curious lack of minorities in of all places, Washington, DC.
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Robert H.

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2003, 12:32:37 am »

Well, we should strive to be "colorblind" with regards to equal rights and fairness, but denying race exists seems silly.

Personally, I don't believe that race should be a consideration in evaluating another individual, or that society should seek any sort of "balance" in terms of racial representation.  Race is meaningless apart from genetics, and we if we choose to measure something based on race then we've chosen the shallowest means possible: measuring someone by what they look like.

Taking this route, we end up eclipsing the individual, and, whether we mean to or not, individual worth as well.

Nowadays, it seems that race is almost inseparable from political ideology.  If you're a certain color, you're supposed to favor a certain ideology, otherwise you're a "traitor," an "Uncle Tom," or whatever.  

Radar

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2003, 12:42:54 am »

Her so-called arguments were sexist, ignorant, and authoritarian in the smoking thread and hold even less merit now.  She clearly has no interest in freedom or liberty what-so-ever.  I too question her motives for being here in the first place.  

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Zack Bass

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2003, 02:20:16 am »


One of the articles I read about corvids mentioned that African Grey parrots have the intelligence of a three-year-old child.  It's pretty hard to imagine that killing them is okay.


My Pocket PC has the intelligence of a 20-year-old Green.  Considering its cost, I won't be killing it, but it's not a moral issue.

Quote

About Atkins and vegetarianism, my belief, as always, is that our evolutionary past suggests the answer.  You've read "Guns, Germs, and Steel", so you know that carb-rich food sources are very new, developed by civilized man only in the last 10K years.  We haven't fully adapted to them


Studies of bones shows that the advent of Agriculture resulted in a huge boom in population - and a considerable decrease in individual health.

Strangely, Agriculture appeared in America not too long after its invention in China and its subsequent appearance in the Middle East.  The State, too, appeared in America not too long after its appearance in Egypt.  Likewise with the Bow&Arrow.
Homo Sapiens was around for 90,000 years before all contact between America and the rest of the world ceased.  These things appeared a couple of thousand years after that, and yet we are to believe that they were invented independently by the same dull species that was unable to invent them for 90,000 years.
http://www.pendarvis.org/rants/coincidences/New_World_Agriculture.html

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Zack Bass

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #28 on: June 18, 2003, 02:30:21 am »


Can you imagine the bar with the sign: ONLY ANARCHIST WELCOME” ? Or bathroom FOR OBJECTIVISTS next to ALL OTHERS? Or note in the bus: :Left leaning libertarians in the back seats of the bus please!”
Well, may be I am paranoid. No businessperson will risk pissing off potential customer with the segregation like that.


Of course we will have that.  Wal-Mart and the like cannot survive without appealing to the masses, but lots of niche businesses do it successfully.  Some bars serve white wine.  Some bars play country music.  I was in a gay bar whose bathrooms were labeled "Bulls" and "Cows".  Didn't matter which one you used.

I would love to see a bar with an "Anarchist-Only" sign.  Be interesting to see whom they call to eject us when I show up with a squad of jack-booted minarchist thugs.

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onyx_goddess

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #29 on: June 18, 2003, 06:24:00 am »

To show how ready I am for the FSP, I will confess that almost every single time I park at a store and see the handicapped parking stalls up in the front, I imagine opening my own store called "Handicap-Haters and Wheelchair-Smashers General Grocery Store" just to revel in the irony of being required by law to put handicap parking stalls up front in my parking lot, and be required by law to provide a wheelchair ramp and "accessible" doors.  I know that sounds bigotted, but it doesn't reflect my attitute towards people with differently-abled leanings, just my attitute towards being forced to patronize customers the government tells me to, in the exact manner required by law.
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