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Author Topic: FSP could be great but...  (Read 21277 times)

onein98percent

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FSP could be great but...
« on: June 13, 2003, 02:27:11 pm »

I am trying to tear myself away from this site. I really liked the idea of the FSP when I read about it in the Orange County Register but after spending so much time conversing with members and visiting countless websites I am disenchanted.
I am not speaking of anyone specifically but I believe that many of the members are either extremely sexist, racist, maladjusted, angry, or all of the above. I know that the FSP members are diverse and not everyone fits any of these descriptions but it seems too prevelant for this project to be anything more than another gun toting group for govt and liberals to ridicule and use to limit even more of our freedoms.
Everyone has the right to their opinions and views, but if you want the 98% to take you seriously, you can't advocate sexism, racism and total anarchy. For the FSP to work there needs to be a multiracial balance of men, women and children, all who respect each others opinions and ideals and persons.
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JasonPSorens

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2003, 03:31:10 pm »

What in heck are you talking about?  The FSP is multiracial, multigender, multisexual.
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LisaLew

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2003, 04:00:25 pm »

In reading the various posts, including the smoking versus antismoking posts, I see a group of people who are for the most part intelligent, strongly opinionated, ready to back up most of their debates.  Both men and women post; there is a board for youth to post.  People hold diverse (if we can even use that word anymore, as the meaning has been so misconstrued) opinions and have knowledge about many different areas.

I hope that the emotional debate of the smoking versus antismoking can be put aside for other things.  It is a highly charged issue, but really, in the scope of things, is it truely that important?  Both sides of the issue have poignant points that merit further investigation, if someone desires to do so.

The hearty debate with little name calling sure made me feel more comfortable with FSP.
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onein98percent

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2003, 04:25:45 pm »

obviously neither of you continued reading the smoking vs. antismoking thread I started as elginx or this post. What I stated had absolutely zero to do with smoking and was based on
1. The admission of a member that there are hardly any female members
2. The sexist ideas stated directly in the latter parts thread
3. My visits to numerous websites linked to profiles of FSP members. (I spent about 5 hours looking at these websites)
There you will find some of the most hateful, outdated, racist, sexist, maladjusted and negative attitudes I have seen in a long time.

Jason-
Please have some integrity and don't say it is multiracial, multigender etc...unless there truly is a balance of all races and genders.  If the nonwhite membership is .05% you can claim it is multiracial but that is semantics, it does not truly represent a multiracial group. I don't know beacuse I don't have access to that information, I can only make an educated guess based on the information stated above.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2003, 04:30:39 pm by onein98percent »
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cathleeninsc

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2003, 04:43:03 pm »

I don't know the racial or gender makeup of the FSP but the members of the FSP that I have knowledge of are less racist, less sexist and more intelligent than the 98%.

I may not agree with every proposal floated here but I am confident that whatever we accomplish in the selected state will allow me a better, freer life with more opportunities and security than staying where I am.

Cathleen in SC
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debra

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2003, 04:50:11 pm »

1. The admission of a member that there are hardly any female members
2. The sexist ideas stated directly in the latter parts thread
3. My visits to numerous websites linked to profiles of FSP members. (I spent about 5 hours looking at these websites)
There you will find some of the most hateful, outdated, racist, sexist, maladjusted and negative attitudes I have seen in a long time.

Jason-
Please have some integrity and don't say it is multiracial, multigender etc...unless there truly is a balance of all races and genders.  If the nonwhite membership is .05% you can claim it is multiracial but that is semantics, it does not truly represent a multiracial group. I don't know beacuse I don't have access to that information, I can only make an educated guess based on the information stated above.

Hi,

Actually, we don't have access to that information either. We don't ask for members' sex, age, ethnic background, sexual preferences, etc when they join, so we can't tell you percentages.  

Anecdotally, we know that there are many women as well as men who are members, that there are people of different racial backgrounds, that there are gays, straights, bi's, and polyamorists.  It's a pretty diverse crowd - we just can't say that there are 40% of these or 28.7% of those, because we don't ask.




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Steve

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2003, 07:20:34 pm »

onein98percent wrote:
Quote
I am not speaking of anyone specifically but I believe that many of the members are either extremely sexist, racist, maladjusted, angry, or all of the above. I know that the FSP members are diverse and not everyone fits any of these descriptions but it seems too prevelant for this project to be anything more than another gun toting group

Well, as a relatively well-adjusted black member, and one of the original organizers, that comment would concern me if it were true.  As we repeatedly warn newcomers, you can't take the rantings of a few individuals in this forum as being somehow representative of this group.

If you look at the group of Organizers at:
http://www.freestateproject.org/about.htm
you will see a list of eight people, and if I am doing the math correctly, half of them are women, and half are men, one of whom is black. One of them (at least) is a devout Christian, one (at least) is an atheist with Buddhist leanings.  We don't share your concerns.

Read through the web site's material, e.g. the articles and essays at:
http://www.freestateproject.org/articles.htm
Two of my essays there support black and feminist causes.  

I personally went to some effort to recruit homosexuals, who should be interested in gay marriage, which would be legal in a libertarian state.  I got mostly a big yawn, it seems they're way past us on this issue.

Gun-toters? Well, I've only touched a gun once in my life, and I think there are a lot of people here who care more about decriminalizing marijuana (the US has the highest per-capita prison population in the world!), but I support all rights protected by the Constitution, including that of self-defense.  "Equalizers" are especially necessary for women, and being well-armed was quite necessary for blacks in the old South.  They certainly couldn't rely on the police!  Funny, some things haven't changed.

Quote
Please have some integrity and don't say it is multiracial, multigender etc...unless there truly is a balance of all races and genders.  If the nonwhite membership is .05% you can claim it is multiracial but that is semantics, it does not truly represent a multiracial group.
I attended a college in which blacks were underrepresented, despite an active effort made to recruit them.  Asians were overrepresented.  What matters to libertarians (as opposed to left and right authoritarians such as yourself) is not the *result* but the *rule*.  The rules must be just, though the outcome may not be to your liking.  My parents belonged to the Fair Housing Council; some whites didn't like it when freedom of movement let some black families into their neighborhoods, but them's the breaks.

Please "have some integrity" and do not accuse Jason of lacking integrity, and acknowledge that some topics are not simple, and that reasonable people can disagree.  Tossing epithets at a bunch of people you don't know is certainly impolite at best.

Having said all that, I would not be surprised to find a few racists, misogynists, and downright criminals in the membership.  You don't get a barrel of 4000 apples without their being a couple of rotten ones.  We are pretty good at tossing them out.  One racist group, Stormfront <http://www.stormfront.org/ >, discussed "taking us over" some months ago, but we quickly disabused them of the idea.  There are many other organizations to serve their ilk; they notice us because we are successful, but we are successful because we don't have them!

Cathleen in SC:
Quote
I don't know the racial or gender makeup of the FSP but the members of the FSP that I have knowledge of are less racist, less sexist and more intelligent than the 98%.
That describes me pretty well.  ;) Tell me more!
« Last Edit: June 13, 2003, 07:28:44 pm by Steve »
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Penfist

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2003, 07:27:08 pm »

Quote
3. My visits to numerous websites linked to profiles of FSP members. (I spent about 5 hours looking at these websites)
There you will find some of the most hateful, outdated, racist, sexist, maladjusted and negative attitudes I have seen in a long time.

Which websites are those, specifically?

In particular, I'd be appreciative if you would be kind enough to group them by: hateful, outdated, racist, sexist, maladjusted and negative.

Shouldn't the outdated sites be in a category by themselves? The maladjusted and negative sites could be in another category, and the hateful, racist, and sexist sites seem to belong together.

It would be very helpful if you could name names here, and explain how you reached your conclusions and categories on a site by site basis.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2003, 07:28:12 pm by Palindrome »
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Condon

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2003, 07:51:41 pm »

Count me in as a downright criminal, having been arrested a few weeks ago for engaging in political activity in public. A pure First Amendment case, of course, but I'm wondering if onein98percent has any concern for such issues. It looks sadly like s/he is more interested in controlling people's minds and bodies so as to arrive at "correct behavior" than in simply letting people be free. A pity that so many people are into control, authority, and coercion...even if they do it "only for the very best of reasons."
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Elizabeth

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2003, 08:04:46 pm »

one (at least) is an atheist with Buddhist leanings

Hey, is that me?   ;D  If not, we have 2 who fit that description.

I'm also an iFeminist (http://www.ifeminists.com), and considered a "left-libertarian" -- interested in getting the govt out of definition of marriage, strict separation of church and state when possible "establishment of religion" is in play, intentional community, humane issues, and discrimination issues.  

The reason I'm not a Democrat is that I think the government is the *worst* possible approach to solve societal problems.

I do tons of charity work (unrelated to the FSP) and I think that's a crucial component of a society which removes the oppressive nanny aspects of government.
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Mary Lou Seymour (libertymls)

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2003, 08:32:02 pm »

What fascinates me about this thread, and, about the other thread elginex" / "onein98percent" started (the govt should ban smoking in bars & thus protect pregnant women's right to work in bars thread), is what on earth was attractive to her about the FSP to begin with? Not one positive comment about why she was interested in the FSP, just jump right in and say "it'd be fine if only you'd let the govt run things".

LOL



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Steve

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2003, 10:04:38 pm »

Quote
Elizabeth wrote:
Quote
Quote from: Steve on Today at 02:20:34am
one (at least) is an atheist with Buddhist leanings
Hey, is that me?    If not, we have 2 who fit that description.
No, me.  And I'm unsuccessfully trying to avoid the conclusion that meat is murder, or at least immoral, which may be how you ended up in PETA.  Religious people can divide animals into two groups: those with souls (just us, coincidentally) and those without (everybody else), with those without okay to eat or use as we see fit.  But the more you study human "psychology" and animal "behavior", the more you find we have in common, and not just with our little brothers the chimps:
http://www.fundwildlife.org/crows.html
http://www.google.com.ru/search?q=corvid+intelligence+tool

The conflict is that we evolved in recent times as a meat-eating animal, like wolves.  It is a universal across human societies that men hunt and women gather, and that roughly 30% of the calories are derived from meat (that it is only 30% belies the myth of the male "breadwinner").  Thus it is "natural" for us to eat meat, but to suggest that what is natural is also good or moral would be to fall into the "naturalistic fallacy".  But it is not easy to be vegetarian, especially here in Russia.  I hate to say, "I'll get around to being moral eventually," but that is the case.
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Robert H.

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2003, 10:48:10 pm »

I think it's a shame that so many people find it necessary to criticize or otherwise question the legitimacy of any effort or organization that does not boast a certain "acceptable" breakdown in its membership.

The FSP is an effort to create a free state.  For that, we need only liberty-oriented people.  Why then should it matter what color or gender our members are so long as they are liberty-oriented?

Steve

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2003, 01:13:35 am »

Quote
The FSP is an effort to create a free state.  For that, we need only liberty-oriented people.  Why then should it matter what color or gender our members are so long as they are liberty-oriented?
An example of judging people not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.  Some people just don't get it.

I recently saw Matrix Reloaded.  Did it really bother Americans that the human rebels were hugely disproportionately non-white, especially black?  I suspect audiences cared more that the rebels were rebels.
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Tony Stelik

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Re:FSP could be great but...
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2003, 12:37:22 pm »

LOL onein98percent!!
FSP forgot about affirmative action and quotas? What a shame ??? :o
But seriously, I can think of big emotions within group of FSPers.
The way we discuss in this forum and the way we answer if somebody has different opinion is suggesting we are not really tolerant people.
FSP collects its members from all possible walks of life. Even if two FSPers discuss given issue we can see three different opinions.
Of course the old divisions for race, gender, sexual orientation will have no place in The Free State, but we could have even stronger divisions amongst us based on philosophical orientation.
Can you imagine the bar with the sign: ONLY ANARCHIST WELCOME” ? Or bathroom FOR OBJECTIVISTS next to ALL OTHERS? Or note in the bus: :Left leaning libertarians in the back seats of the bus please!”
Well, may be I am paranoid. No businessperson will risk pissing off potential customer with the segregation like that.
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