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[Radar]

Welcome Chad!  You seem like a great addition to our little group.  You seem to have a firm grasp on the concept of freedom.  And you're lucky to have seen Elizabeth on MSN.  She represented the FSP well.  

[LeopardPM]

LOL - lots of time reading thru this thread - very interesting...my unimportant opinions follow:

1/98% - Re: the whole smoking thing....
I agree with you that smoking/2nd hand smoke does violate other peoples right to pursue life... but, you must understand, in a free state, the non-smokers are also free to create a community that is smoke-free, with ordinances and CC&Rs, and probably signs at the entrances to these towns that state in no uncertain terms "This is a TOTALLY Smoke-Free Community, you are welcome to visit, move here, start a business, or what have you, BUT, do not smoke or you will be in direct violation of our rules and fined() accordingly" - It seems to me that you would welcome the chance to be a part of such a community, the exact type of community which is outlawed in your state right now.  Being free to smoke allows others the freedom to not smoke or even ever having to deal with smokers also.

re: Fillipino brides et al....
Zack, I don't think I have yet to read a thread in which you don't bring up your whole fillipino bride stuff.  I must admit that these days I look forward to your posts to see how exactly you are going to work it into the conversation at hand - Love ya Man - You make me smile!  BTW - if this date with Jacqueline doesn't work out I might just go your way... lol j/k

re: employment, safety, etc...
the problem that libs have in discussing these issues with others is that we come from what has been pointed out as 'utopia' or the final end-result of lib principles upon a society.  the people (1/98% in this instance) are taking the current state of society and applying our principals point blank - which would cause tremendous pain to people in general.  For instance: joe worker and his family - he is unemployed, he has choice of working for unsafe employer or not being able to feed his family.  This situation is totally out of context.  The whole premise of lib society is one of freedom=responsibility... so, in the end result society, joe worker would have been taught about self-reliance, how to make good life decisions, the potential for his unemployement, etc AND would (if he was responsible) have taken steps BEFORE his unemployment to make sure he had more choices than only to work for Mr. HazardousWork employer.  Perhaps by putting enough money away to ensure his ability to move his family to a place where Mr. Safe employer has a business, or even better, become skilled in other trades so he can easily change into another less-hazardous field should the need arise.  The point is... it is a fallacy to take Joe Worker from the statist society we have today and through him into the Free State of the FUTURE.  thats like throwing a caveman into a job working at a Silicon-chip Manufacturing plant and pointing to his inadequacies and saying that proves we can't ever have a Chip business because no one will know how to run it. (well, a bad metaphor, but ya'all know what I mean)

ok, enuf of me already - can't wait to read more from you guys/gals...

Viva la Liberty,
michael

[shere]

I just went through all five pages and have some random comments.  

It is most likely that 98 percent of americans feel as 1in98 does.  Does that justify ramming "government protection" down our throats?  It seems to me that it indicates that we 2% are being taxed and receive no representation.  That sounds familiar....  We cannot change the whole country.  That is why we are trying to find a place where we can live as we wish without interference from others.

There was once a time when the States enjoyed autonomy.  If one disliked the political climate in Georgia one could move to New York.  There were options.  That is no more, THX1138 seems to be just around the corner.  Or perhaps it's the Borg, "Resistance is futile, you WILL be assimilated!"  Do you suggest that we simply roll over and succumb?  

1in98, with all due respect, your attitude distresses me.  You accuse others of being unyielding and then confesses to being unyielding yourself.  You claim to seek liberty yet wish to deprive others of theirs.  You compare the act of others smoking in your presence to the beating of children and worse.  You responded to what I read as cogent arguments with what I perceived as snide and inflamatory remarks.  In addition to this you spoke of your fiancee's uninformed reaction to the FSP in a manner that indicates him to be a closed-minded prejudiced individual.  I am sure that he is a fine person; however I wish to live among people who are more open-minded and tolerant than portray him to be.

I, too, live in California.  When the smoking ban was applied to bars I asked "if there is such a demand for smoke-free bars, why has no bar owner voluntarily banned smoking and capitalized on it?"  I have yet to receive an answer.

Those who would have liberty must accept the responsibility that comes with it.  That includes not crying for the government to restrict the liberties of others because it is an inconvience to us; no matter how severe that inconvience is perceived to be.  Once the government is given the power to restrict any freedom a line has been drawn, and once the line has been drawn it is all to easily moved until no freedoms exist.

This used to be called "The land of opportunities".  When did it come to be viewed as "The land of guarantees"?

I'm sorry if I sound harsh; but LIFE is harsh and it's hard enough without people invoking the "democratic government" to unduely restrict our freedoms.  It is my honest opinion that the global problems of famine, wars, and disease are a direct result of over-population.  Do I have the right to infringe on your reproductive rights?  I thought not.

[RhythmStar]

This thread is definitely disturbing.

I agree wholeheartedly with everything Radar said in his last long post.

However, it's pretty clear we just lost a potential member, so something went wrong.  Maybe that's inevitable, but maybe not.  Several times I've wondered if this thread should be moderated strictly like the religion thread.  After all, if potentials are routed here, then this spot should be potential-friendly.

Now, some might argue that elginx isn't a liberty lover after all.  But I'd argue that she's like a lot of Americans - complacent with the status quo, but open to being educated about freedom.  I have had very similar discussions about smoking in restaurants, and for some reason that's a hard one to grasp right away for complacents.

There's an episode of King of the Hill where Hank explains his technique for selling more propane than all the other salespeople.  He educates his customer, and then lets then go home and make the right decision for themselves.  I think that's what went wrong.  Sometimes debating a point with someone can't do any good.  It's best to lay the cards out on the table in a clear, but gentle manner, and then let them go home and think about it.

When people have a need, they must find a way to satisfy it.  If FSP folks cannot realize this and find a way to present alternatives that address these needs, rather than castigation for having needs and thinking they should be addressed somhow by society in the first place, then the FSP will end up like the LP, just on a smaller, more localized scale.   Dynamical systems look the same, no matter what scale you observe them at.  For the FSP to avoid becoming the mini-LP, the dynamic must change.

People come here with a lifetime of conditioning as to what they should expect.  A little sensitivity and less venom would go a long way. The frontal assault only digs in heels, is almost never successful, and is always costly.

RS

[Zack Bass]

When people have a need, they must find a way to satisfy it.  If FSP folks cannot realize this and find a way to present alternatives that address these needs, rather than castigation for having needs and thinking they should be addressed somhow by society in the first place, then the FSP will end up like the LP, just on a smaller, more localized scale.

When people feel a "need" to do something that restricts my Freedom, it is not true that they must find a way to satisfy it.  What they must do is put up with their plight.
The existence of your "need" does not create a corresponding obligation on my part.  If you want to ask for Charity, I am compassionate.  If you want to insist, you can pound sand.

People come here with a lifetime of conditioning as to what they should expect.  A little sensitivity and less venom would go a long way. The frontal assault only digs in heels, is almost never successful, and is always costly.

Not true.  It is not our job to cater to those who will never ever ever support our reforms.  Not only is it a waste of time, but it turns away those who would support us.  Real libertarians will cheer our frontal assault and derive much amusement from gleefully observing The Digging In Of The Heels.
The Liberals of the early 70's didn't shrink from making great fun of their opponents, and we are living under their heel today.

[RhythmStar]

So, Libertarians always have to seem like they have a great big chip on their shoulder?  Why so defensive?

RS

[jenlee]

What about the women and yes the men of the state everyone is supposed to move to? Aren't you forgetting them?

You guys are not willing to compromise your ideals for any one or any thing. I respect that. I used to be more like that but over the years I have found that I have more success when I am somewhat flexible.

That's not success, that's settling.

How many of the 3,900 or so signed members are women? I haven't seen very many on these boards.

Very few.  And the ones you do see are already taken, except for two or three.
Not to worry, I've got that covered:  http://Filipina.com

So see, we don't have to worry about your warning that no American women will find our attitudes attractive.  We will not burden them with that which they despise.

[Zack Bass]

What about the women and yes the men of the state everyone is supposed to move to? Aren't you forgetting them?

How many of the 3,900 or so signed members are women? I haven't seen very many on these boards.

Very few.  And the ones you do see are already taken, except for two or three.
Not to worry, I've got that covered:  http://Filipina.com

So see, we don't have to worry about your warning that no American women will find our attitudes attractive.  We will not burden them with that which they despise.

No.  I remember that they are there, for now.  What about them?

[Zack Bass]

So, Libertarians always have to seem like they have a great big chip on their shoulder?  Why so defensive?

Same reason Frederick Douglass had a chip on his shoulder.
The Majoritarians are imprisoning innocent people.  A reasonable and natural response to an attack is defensiveness.

[skeeterroo2]

As I sit at my job, waiting for reports to come back I am reading this. Sadly the continuing theme on every page is your selfishness against one or the others views. This sickens me as I was coming to this site to be enlightened with wisdom of people like myself. What I have found is that no matter what, John Q. Public (even if given the chance to make things better for everyone) is a selfish bastard. I too worked in a bar as a bartender when I was pregnant. I also got into a fight (verbal) when I was 8 months pregnant because a certain former congressman decided to give me his useless two cents. He told me because I was working in a bar and not yet married to the father of my chlid ( am now thanks for the concern) I was not going to amount to anything and I had no self respect( and thus would be the world's worst mother) because I was a barmaid in a smokey bar. I politely dumped his drink and told him to escort himself to the exit, gave him his money back too. Now according to Mr. Smokey Bar Snotty Pants I should have been fired. And any of you would think that considering the fact that I also offended his lawyer son, his circuit court judge son and an eight-top worth of high profile B.S.r's. But  I wasn't because my boss realized that my feelings were more important than money. Rocket Science for some I know but I  would never live in a world where I need to walk on eggshells for any man, money or anything else you may deem far more important than human life( is there?). Look I am truly interested in the project but I am truly weary because in a true free society yes we should be able to say what we feel. However there is something to be said for tact, and dude you have none. I have since left the bar so I can give many other countless people fits. But I stick to my guns, and there is something to be said for a woman who does not need your approval to survive. Big ups to the lady who initiated this convo. You do have rights, so exercise them and quit your damn job if it makes you that miserable. Bartenders can get jobs anywhere doing anything, your charisma will lead the way.

[Zack Bass]

  ... I politely dumped his drink and told him to escort himself to the exit, gave him his money back too. Now according to Mr. Smokey Bar Snotty Pants I should have been fired.

No one can reasonably say that you ought to have been fired for that - unless, of course, the Owner of the bar wanted to fire you.  It is entirely up to him, and I will defend to the death his right not to fire you if he doesn't want to.  No one ought to say that he must fire you.  Who said that?  Such a requirement would violate the Property Rights of the Owner of the Bar.  That's just as bad as saying that he must not fire you.  Either way is his business and no one else's.

[goon]

I also got into a fight (verbal) when I was 8 months pregnant because a certain former congressman decided to give me his useless two cents. He told me because I was working in a bar and not yet married to the father of my chlid ( am now thanks for the concern) I was not going to amount to anything and I had no self respect( and thus would be the world's worst mother) because I was a barmaid in a smokey bar. I politely dumped his drink and told him to escort himself to the exit, gave him his money back too.

You sound like one hell of a woman.