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Author Topic: Simple Condorcet discussion  (Read 7550 times)

JasonPSorens

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Simple Condorcet discussion
« on: December 16, 2002, 10:44:15 am »

This thread is for questions & answers about Simple Condorcet's Method, the new voting system for the FSP.  Please check out the FAQs & Voting Methods Report first:
http://www.freestateproject.org/faqs.htm
http://www.freestateproject.org/votingmethods.htm
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

ZionCurtain

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Re:Simple Condorcet discussion
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2002, 03:36:01 pm »

It seems to eliminate strategic voting, which I am in favor of. At least it seem to. Can we get a practice poll of this? If possible.
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JasonPSorens

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Re:Simple Condorcet discussion
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2002, 05:47:24 pm »

Yes, I think a practice poll would be a good idea.  I'm thinking about doing something like, What is your favorite political party?  Rank the following:
Libertarian
Constitution
America First
Alaska Independence
Southern
Independence (Jesse Ventura's Reform splitoff)
Reform
Democrat
Green
Natural Law

That's 10 choices, so it mirrors the state vote in that respect.
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

Barbara

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Re:Simple Condorcet discussion
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2002, 06:00:05 pm »

Where are Republicans?  And where is none of the above? ;)

Seriously, so let's say, I rate NL, AI and C no. 1, L next, I, AF and R next, and S, D, and G last  - do I have to choose, say among the No. 1s to pick 1, 2 and 3 and so on?  And is there no way I can indicate I really really really don't like S,D and G - equally?
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Shayde

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Re:Simple Condorcet discussion
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2002, 06:09:59 pm »

I gotta say I don't know what some of those parties are so it would be hard for me to vote on them.  Can you change the list of things to vote for to cars or something for under-educated people like myself?   :-[

 ;)
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JasonPSorens

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Re:Simple Condorcet discussion
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2002, 06:14:56 pm »

Oops, I indeed forgot the Republicans! :P  Barbara - you can indicate ties, the system handles them as such.  Shayde - Aww, but since we're all oriented toward political change, I think this would be fun. ;)  Plus we all should probably learn about the various party options out there.  But eliminating some of the more marginal options might be good: Republicans could replace Independence.  Then there's the America First Party, it's young & untested, it could be eliminated as well.  Then we have 9 choices.  We could have quick phrases to identify each party & have links to their websites; e.g., Natural Law (Yogic flyers), Constitution (hard right), etc.
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

Barbara

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Re:Simple Condorcet discussion
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2002, 06:46:47 pm »

Oops, I indeed forgot the Republicans! :P  Barbara - you can indicate ties, the system handles them as such.  
 OK thanks.  I also like the idea of one-(or so)liners to describe the parties, but maybe take the one-line from their platform rather than putting a personal spin on it(?) ;D
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JasonPSorens

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Re:Simple Condorcet discussion
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2002, 07:32:10 pm »

haha  Sure, sure...
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

thewaka

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Re:Simple Condorcet discussion
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2002, 08:51:43 pm »

you can indicate ties, the system handles them as such.

Jason, can you give an example of indicating a tie? I have wondered how I would rank several of the western states as they are pretty much tied for me and this would be great. Thanks.

Diana
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JasonPSorens

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Re:Simple Condorcet discussion
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2002, 11:11:26 am »

You would just give them the same rank number.  So for example:

1. Wyoming
2. Montana
2. Idaho
2. Alaska
5. North Dakota

etc.

In thise case, Montana, Idaho, and Alaska are ties.
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

JasonPSorens

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Re:Simple Condorcet discussion
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2002, 11:15:12 am »

By the way, until we get a practice poll going, y'all might be interested in checking out the Ranked-Ballot Calculator.  Using this, you can devise your own election and see how Condorcet methods differ from each other and from other ranked-ballot methods, like Instant Runoff Voting and Borda.  Our method is called "Simpson" on this page.

http://www.onr.com/user/honky98/rbvote/calc.html
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

wolf_tracker

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Re:Simple Condorcet discussion
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2002, 11:49:15 am »

i keep getting no condorcet winner...
any idea what i am doing wrong

 ???
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JasonPSorens

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Re:Simple Condorcet discussion
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2002, 09:55:18 am »

Oh, that's OK.  If there's no Condorcet winner, that means there are cyclical preferences.  Different Condorcet methods resolve this situation differently.  Take a look at what Simpson does: that's what we're using.  It eliminates the smallest-magnitude victory first, until no candidate is undefeated.  Schulze is the most complex Condorcet method on that page & the one most game theorists favor.  We didn't choose it because it's pretty hard to explain.
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

TedApelt

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Re:Simple Condorcet discussion
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2002, 03:28:23 pm »

If you can have ties, is it possible to do some "strategic voting" by ranking your favorite first, then making all the rest tied for second?
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bakedchip

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Re:Simple Condorcet discussion
« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2002, 10:02:27 am »

If you can have ties, is it possible to do some "strategic voting" by ranking your favorite first, then making all the rest tied for second?

It's possible to do that, but it's not really strategic voting unless you're falsifying your preferences.  Generally, strategic voting refers to changing your true candidate rankings in the vote in order to get a better result.

If someone truly likes one state best and all the others equally after it, and they vote that way, that's fine.

All voting methods are technically susceptible to strategic voting of some form or another, but Condorcet's method strongly discourages it since it is quite difficult to make it work.

- Chip Spangler
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