Free State Project Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 ... 12   Go Down

Author Topic: Liberty Dollar?  (Read 42846 times)

LeRuineur6

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1634
  • Act decisively. Without reserve!
    • Liberty Scholarship Fund
Liberty Dollar?
« on: March 04, 2004, 11:49:29 am »

We've been talking about using actual silver, or a local currency, as money in NH.  I was told about the Liberty Dollar today and it has peaked my interest.

Does anyone have any experience with it?

To me it seems almost like theft, or at least semi-fraudulent.  You are giving away silver for "$10" that is worth AT MOST $8 to $9 in single coin form (mint condition), although I'm sure their silver coins are far cheaper than that in circulated condition.

What if there was a phone number people could call to obtain the current price of silver?  You could spend money using silver, negotiate the price if they do not already know it, and if they are really suspicious, they can just call the number to verify the value of one ounce of silver, and add some for their own costs.

Ideally, you would use a generic 99.99% silver coin, in any condition, and use it at spot price.

If they REALLY get suspicious, you can give them a business card to a local coin dealer you are familiar with.

I don't like to mislead people.  And I don't like this "honest" liberty dollar that says "$10" but is not redeemable for $10 in silver to recipients.  I don't think we should try to profit from our currency at the expense of others.

Why wouldn't it work to start using silver bullion on a small scale.  Doesn't ANYONE offer an alternative to the Liberty Dollar that does not say "$10" on it?  Why would you use the a silver certificate with a dollar sign at all?  Why not just have the certificate say "1 ounce" instead?
« Last Edit: March 04, 2004, 12:35:30 pm by LeRuineur6 »
Logged
Please donate $5 to $10 per month to the Liberty Scholarship Fund!
"Noncooperation is intended to pave the way to real, honorable, and voluntary cooperation based on mutual respect and trust." -Gandhi

LeRuineur6

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1634
  • Act decisively. Without reserve!
    • Liberty Scholarship Fund
Re:Liberty Dollar?
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2004, 12:13:53 pm »

I guess the main question here is:

Is there a widely-used currency, such as the Liberty Dollar, that is paper money with a promise to pay X ounces of silver when redeemed?

The only reason I do not like the Liberty Dollar is because of its dishonest attempt to appear worth exactly as much as an FRN.

If there were affordable Liberty Dollars with NO dollar signs on them, and ONLY bullion amounts, I would gladly use them!
« Last Edit: March 04, 2004, 12:35:39 pm by LeRuineur6 »
Logged
Please donate $5 to $10 per month to the Liberty Scholarship Fund!
"Noncooperation is intended to pave the way to real, honorable, and voluntary cooperation based on mutual respect and trust." -Gandhi

Norris

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 459
  • I'm a llama!
Re:Liberty Dollar?
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2004, 04:20:03 pm »

There has been considerable discussion of Bernard Von Nothaus's Liberty Dollar on this forum several months back and the general consensus was that although it's better than the FRN it's not the best solution because it's only partially backed.

I have one in my hand that says it's backed by 1/10 troy ounce of silver, which is already much better than FRN, but once the exchange rate between the FRN and silver reaches a certain mark, it will only be backed by 1/20 of an ounce of silver.

Personally, in spite of some inconveniences, I'd like to see actual silver used in trade. The generic rounds are one troy ounce of 99.9% silver, only Canadian Maple Leafs are 99.99%.

Merchants could display the current spot price so merchandise could be purchased with both FRN's and silver.  Moves to implement such a system will reveal how powerful the private "Federal" reserve bankers are. If FSP'ers stir up this hornet's nest they will quickly get an education about TPTB.

http://iresist.com/cbg/mcfadden.html

I would welcome such a scenario.

Logged
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed; second, it is violently opposed; and third, it is accepted as self-evident. --Arthur Schopenhauer

LeRuineur6

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1634
  • Act decisively. Without reserve!
    • Liberty Scholarship Fund
Re:Liberty Dollar?
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2004, 04:46:57 pm »

I've been doing a vast amount of research today based on this question, but I cannot find a fully silver-backed paper currency ANYWHERE!

Also, I've learned that trusting a metal-backed PAPER currency causes people to allow their government to monopolize and abuse that currency until its backing becomes meaningless, the backing is eventually removed, and the currency eventually collapses.

Perhaps we should create a fully coin- and ingot-based currency based on silver and gold.  Some gold could be added in the middle for the higher denominations.  The more the coin is worth, the more gold and the less silver.

Of course you would somehow have to do this on a VERY cheap basis, make a profit, AND obtain high acceptance rates.  This could be started in a community at first and it could gain popularity from there.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2004, 04:47:43 pm by LeRuineur6 »
Logged
Please donate $5 to $10 per month to the Liberty Scholarship Fund!
"Noncooperation is intended to pave the way to real, honorable, and voluntary cooperation based on mutual respect and trust." -Gandhi

Norris

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 459
  • I'm a llama!
Re:Liberty Dollar?
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2004, 05:17:30 pm »

As the fiat dollar continues to decline, such an idea would gain high acceptance rates quickly, out of spite if nothing else.

The denominations should be troy ounces of 999 gold and silver with a market gold/silver ratio monitoring system in place. All promissory notes could be denominated in gold or silver ounces, as desired by the parties involved.

The complicated part is where it interfaces with fiat.
Logged
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed; second, it is violently opposed; and third, it is accepted as self-evident. --Arthur Schopenhauer

LeRuineur6

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1634
  • Act decisively. Without reserve!
    • Liberty Scholarship Fund
Re:Liberty Dollar?
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2004, 05:37:26 pm »

At first, promissory notes would not be used at all because of the high barriers to entry, maintenance costs, storage costs, distribution costs, and low margins of a promissory note business.

Only coins would be used at first.  Silver coins, gold coins, and hybrid coins would be used.  Gold and silver content would be clearly printed on the coins.

NO fiat currency interface, NO dollar signs, and ONLY metal weight is printed on it.

For the time being, we'll have to tell merchants the value of the coin for when we use it, and they'll have to trust us and get used to the idea.

Eventually, retailers would have their own system to determine the daily gold and silver values.  This is EXACTLY how currency exchange rates work.

Retailers must find their own way of determining the value of the money when they accept it, otherwise they must reject it and probably lose a customer at the same time.

That is why this must start on a small scale.  We can do the same thing as local currencies have done:  we start a list of businesses that accept our money and attempt to expand the list, ad infinitum.
Logged
Please donate $5 to $10 per month to the Liberty Scholarship Fund!
"Noncooperation is intended to pave the way to real, honorable, and voluntary cooperation based on mutual respect and trust." -Gandhi

LeRuineur6

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1634
  • Act decisively. Without reserve!
    • Liberty Scholarship Fund
Re:Liberty Dollar?
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2004, 05:41:47 pm »

It is extremely important that the coins are manufactured on a low cost basis so we can use the coins near the silver or gold spot price.

Otherwise, the quality of the coins will determine their redemption value, and that is not acceptable for our purposes.  We must make the coins as close to spot price as possible!
Logged
Please donate $5 to $10 per month to the Liberty Scholarship Fund!
"Noncooperation is intended to pave the way to real, honorable, and voluntary cooperation based on mutual respect and trust." -Gandhi

Norris

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 459
  • I'm a llama!
Re:Liberty Dollar?
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2004, 05:52:20 pm »

There are millions of generic one troy ounce 999 silver rounds already in existence (and I have a some of them buried). There has not been any counterfeit problems with them so far. Common ones are Mexican Onzas and Englehard Prospector rounds, but there may be over a hundred varieties. There are many varieties of one ounce rectangular "bars" or "wafers" which appear to be very cheaply made, but have the same intrinsic value.

Same basic story with gold, Kruegerrands being the most prolific and currently having the lowest premium.

Merchants already pay a premium for credit card transactions so the foundation is in place.
Logged
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed; second, it is violently opposed; and third, it is accepted as self-evident. --Arthur Schopenhauer

LeRuineur6

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1634
  • Act decisively. Without reserve!
    • Liberty Scholarship Fund
Re:Liberty Dollar?
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2004, 08:22:35 pm »

Be aware that shipping charges from these companies will add quite a bit to the overhead costs.

Generic .999 silver rounds are $8.25 each at CCSilver in Arizona.
http://www.ccsilver.com/silver/silverbullion.html#generic

NPC, in Oregon, sells generic .999 silver rounds at $7.71 each.
http://www.numismaticproperties.com/main.htm

CheaperGold.com in Oklahoma is pretty good.  They sell assorted generic rounds and bars for $7.05 each!
http://www.cheapergold.com/shop/shop.asp#silver
Logged
Please donate $5 to $10 per month to the Liberty Scholarship Fund!
"Noncooperation is intended to pave the way to real, honorable, and voluntary cooperation based on mutual respect and trust." -Gandhi

Norris

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 459
  • I'm a llama!
Re:Liberty Dollar?
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2004, 08:35:10 pm »

Tulving has them at 7.29 including shipping and insurance (which are substantial).

http://www.tulving.com/goldbull.html#silver

NWT mint has them for spot + .45 which comes to 7.15
Also includes ship and ins.

http://www.nwtmintbullion.com/SilverBullion.htm

Please forgive me for gloating but I bought piles of them last year for around 5 bucks.

Back to the topic, yes there is the problem of who pays  this premium if FSP'ers implement this monetary reform.
Logged
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed; second, it is violently opposed; and third, it is accepted as self-evident. --Arthur Schopenhauer

BillG

  • Guest
Re:Liberty Dollar?
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2004, 08:59:18 pm »

I've been doing a vast amount of research today based on this question, but I cannot find a fully silver-backed paper currency ANYWHERE!

Also, I've learned that trusting a metal-backed PAPER currency causes people to allow their government to monopolize and abuse that currency until its backing becomes meaningless, the backing is eventually removed, and the currency eventually collapses.

Perhaps we should create a fully coin- and ingot-based currency based on silver and gold.  Some gold could be added in the middle for the higher denominations.  The more the coin is worth, the more gold and the less silver.

Of course you would somehow have to do this on a VERY cheap basis, make a profit, AND obtain high acceptance rates.  This could be started in a community at first and it could gain popularity from there.

why do you have to trade in the actual hard metal currency?

why not simply invest in the metal and issue paper scrip backed by the investment?

what am I missing here?
Logged

LeRuineur6

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1634
  • Act decisively. Without reserve!
    • Liberty Scholarship Fund
Re:Liberty Dollar?
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2004, 09:02:22 pm »

why not simply invest in the metal and issue paper scrip backed by the investment?

How?
Logged
Please donate $5 to $10 per month to the Liberty Scholarship Fund!
"Noncooperation is intended to pave the way to real, honorable, and voluntary cooperation based on mutual respect and trust." -Gandhi

Norris

  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 459
  • I'm a llama!
Re:Liberty Dollar?
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2004, 09:05:06 pm »



why do you have to trade in the actual hard metal currency?

why not simply invest in the metal and issue paper scrip backed by the investment?

what am I missing here?
Tell you what, BillG, I've got the hard metal backing and I'll issue the script. You can trust me on this, honest, I wouldn't lie. After all, I'm a banker, and you know you can trust bankers.
Logged
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed; second, it is violently opposed; and third, it is accepted as self-evident. --Arthur Schopenhauer

LeRuineur6

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1634
  • Act decisively. Without reserve!
    • Liberty Scholarship Fund
Re:Liberty Dollar?
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2004, 08:38:55 am »

So far, I cannot find 100 rounds of generic .999 silver rounds for any less than CheaperGold.com's offer.

However, these seem to be in new condition only, but I'm not entirely sure.  We can use anything for currency that is in acceptable condition instead.  There's NO reason to use brand new bullion when we're focusing on paying a minimum premium.

I'll keep looking.
Logged
Please donate $5 to $10 per month to the Liberty Scholarship Fund!
"Noncooperation is intended to pave the way to real, honorable, and voluntary cooperation based on mutual respect and trust." -Gandhi

LeRuineur6

  • FSP Participant
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1634
  • Act decisively. Without reserve!
    • Liberty Scholarship Fund
Re:Liberty Dollar?
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2004, 08:45:49 am »

Hmmm... I just realized why we won't be able to find generic CIRCULATED .999 silver rounds and bars.

Silver (.999) bullion rounds have not been in circulation in almost any country on Earth for decades.

There must be somewhere on Earth that currently circulates generic .999 silver rounds.

What about Somalia?  They have no government.
Logged
Please donate $5 to $10 per month to the Liberty Scholarship Fund!
"Noncooperation is intended to pave the way to real, honorable, and voluntary cooperation based on mutual respect and trust." -Gandhi
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 ... 12   Go Up