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Author Topic: State criteria unchangeable by FSP activists  (Read 13577 times)

Solitar

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State criteria unchangeable by FSP activists
« on: November 10, 2002, 09:54:58 pm »

LET'S RESTRICT THIS THREAD TO DISCUSSION OF CRITERIA THE FREE STATE ACTIVISTS CAN NOT CHANGE AND WHICH AFFECT THE VIABILITY OF A FREE STATE and criteria which can not realistically be changed within a few decades.

Criteria that affect the number of voters and ability to reach them with the Free State message:
population, population density, urbanization, city sizes, dispersal of population or cities, etc.

Criteria which affect how many recruits will move to the Free State:
climate, dark sky, coastline, mountains, forests, agricultural area, land area,
proximity to large cities and metro amenities, etc.

Criteria which can not realistically be changed within a few decades
educational level of residents & voters,
infrastructure of highways, railroads & waterways
non-fed land area, number and size of federal installations, etc.
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varrin

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Re:State criteria unchangeable by FSP activists
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2002, 11:31:59 pm »

Odds are the weather will never be changed by the FSP.  Hence, based on my preferences and research, Idaho comes out on top by leaps and bounds.

Are we looking for detailed data here?

V-

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ZionCurtain

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Re:State criteria unchangeable by FSP activists
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2002, 11:34:16 pm »

Varrin, I lived in Idaho over 20 years and I never thought anyone would say it has favorable weather.  ;D

Sorry for my topic hijacking.
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JT

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Re:State criteria unchangeable by FSP activists
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2002, 04:05:28 pm »

I don't think we could realistically get rid of the public education system any time soon.  While that would definitely be a goal of ours, it's a long term one.  People expect the gov't to educate their kids.  While we might be sucessful in getting more people to homeschool their kids or send them to a private school, does anyone honestly think we can convince people that the gov't has no role in educating kids?  Sending their kids to public school is an easy way for them to afford 'daycare.'  A lot of people wouldn't be receptive to the idea of taking responsibility for their children's education.
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ZionCurtain

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Re:State criteria unchangeable by FSP activists
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2002, 04:35:18 pm »

I think in places were home ownership is high you could succeed in a For Pay Public School system instead of a taxes paying the way. I think eliminating High Schools as they currently are set up is the best choice. You could have technical schools for kids going into certain fields like mechanics and what not and prep schools for students going on to college. Local Businesses would sponsor the schools therefore ensuring that they have a worker base educated to there needs. Just an idea anyway.
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JT

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Re:State criteria unchangeable by FSP activists
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2002, 04:39:16 pm »

A very interesting idea...
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varrin

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Re:State criteria unchangeable by FSP activists
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2002, 11:14:32 pm »

Lemme just put a plug here on the school topic:

http://sepschool.org

If you haven't been there, go there.  The Free State could be the first to impliment a separation of school and state.  I bet we all have different ideas about how we want education to happen.  In a Free State we'll all get a chance to work towards our goals.  

As for feasability, I think the FSP and separating school and state go hand in hand.  In fact, privatizing and deregulating the state school system would be one of the first things we'd want to do (I'll keep this short and let you imagine the reasons yourself).  Between scholorships and tuition, we could cover the cost quite easily, IMO.  Of course, my family will be homeschooling ;-)

V-

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Robert H.

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Re:State criteria unchangeable by FSP activists
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2002, 02:06:25 am »

While we might be sucessful in getting more people to homeschool their kids or send them to a private school, does anyone honestly think we can convince people that the gov't has no role in educating kids?  Sending their kids to public school is an easy way for them to afford 'daycare.'  A lot of people wouldn't be receptive to the idea of taking responsibility for their children's education.

You have an excellent point here.

In this past election, Florida passed a measure forcing state schools to provide K-4 even though Jeb Bush was out there telling people that this would require raising taxes because there was no funding available for it.  My wife, who has taught school and worked in daycare in Florida, automatically said that this was a way for parents to get around paying for daycare for their four year olds.

And so they bum it off on the state, not thinking about the fact that it's going to cost them anyway in the form of taxation, both of themselves and others.  Yet this is one of the key strengths of statism:  it portrays people not as individuals, but as society.  And people are willing to do things to society that they would otherwise not do to other individuals.  Most Floridians who voted for this measure would probably never think of reaching into their neighbor's wallet and taking out cash to fund K-4 for their kids, but having state legislators do it for them via public taxation depersonalizes the situation and removes any such guilt for violating individual rights.

This is one core statist philosophy that we're going to have to combat right from the start in order to make headway:  individuals have rights, society does not.  We've got to persuade people to see each other as individuals again or there is no limit to what they can do to each other.

wes237

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Re:State criteria unchangeable by FSP activists
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2002, 02:23:20 am »

I don't have children and do not expect to. Having said that, I believe that the public schools need to be one of the first thing changed....if only to start by getting the feds out of the equation.

Literacy has gone downhill since the early 70's when the feds and states started getting all into the business of school funding. Somehow the people who desire public schooling for their kids need to see the wisdom of divorcing the government  and getting back local controls. And to sell the idea, literacy rates must  go up. This can be accomplished by returning to the basics of education (the 3 R's), and leaving the government's influence of "citizenship" out of it.

You do not want Officer Friendly and McGruff the Crime Dog making monthly visits to the public schools and getting the children to tell them (through socialist shame techniques) what Mommy and daddy are up to in the FSP.
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varrin

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Re:State criteria unchangeable by FSP activists
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2002, 12:42:52 pm »

You do not want Officer Friendly and McGruff the Crime Dog making monthly visits to the public schools and getting the children to tell them (through socialist shame techniques) what Mommy and daddy are up to in the FSP.

And that's exactly what will happen.  I agree, state schooling needs to be replaced with quality education.

V-

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JT

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Re:State criteria unchangeable by FSP activists
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2002, 01:01:32 pm »

So how do we go about changing this?  

Seriously.  If we come into town and say "public education is bad" we will immediately be ostracized.  Noone will listen to anything else we say, because they will be so appalled that 'outsiders' think the gov't shouldn't babysit their kids.  It's one thing to talk to someone on a one-by-one basis and explain that homeschoolers score MUCH higher on standardized tests.  But if we try to scrap the public school system before trying to convince people to take their kids out voluntarily, we will just be hurting ourselves.

If you immediately get rid of public schools, the sheep will panic.  If instead you start off showing people the errors of sending their kids to 'propaganda camps' then they will be more receptive to your ideas.  People like to think that they are figuring out the solution rather than have someone else thinking for them and saying "public schools are bad.  we are getting rid of them tomorrow.  deal with it."
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JT

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Re:State criteria unchangeable by FSP activists
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2002, 01:26:30 pm »

Right, which means we can't try to do this overnight.  Instead of getting rid of public ed.  we should just convince kids to get their kids out voluntarily, thereby starving the public schools of 'victims'.
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JasonPSorens

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Re:State criteria unchangeable by FSP activists
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2002, 02:20:15 pm »

We have to use the right rhetoric.  We can't say "Public schools are bad and should be abolished."  First of all, we should never use the phrase, "public schools."  We should call them "government schools," or even better, refer to the current system as "socialized schooling."  Thus, we can say, "Socialized schooling doesn't work.  We need to introduce competition and give parents more control over their children's education.  The best way to do this is by 'securitization,' allowing teachers to take control of government schools and charge tuition, while eliminating the property taxes used to pay for government schools currently.  These new schools will be called 'community schools.'  We will have a standard 'school benefit' of $500 for every child so that we can make sure every child receives a quality education in the new, competitive, community schools - or a private school."

Of course, there is no difference between a community school and a private school.  But the former sounds better and wins more public support for a policy that makes sense: stopping the subsidies to failing government schools and making them compete.
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

thewaka

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Re:State criteria unchangeable by FSP activists
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2002, 04:34:57 pm »

Could most of this thread be moved to the political strategy board (or wherever is appropriate) as it has nothing to do with the subject as started by Joe? Thank you.

Diana (a newbie trying to keep up with all the amazing things posted here)
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JasonPSorens

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Re:State criteria unchangeable by FSP activists
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2002, 05:30:35 pm »

Unfortunately, we can't move single posts, and the thread as originally conceived is a valid "which state?" topic... I'd encourage people to try to stay on-topic within threads and start new threads for new topics, however. :)

On that note - welcome, Diana! ;)
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism
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