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Author Topic: Breaking up FSP - WY for the West - VT for the East  (Read 18056 times)

freedomroad

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Breaking up FSP - WY for the West - VT for the East
« on: November 08, 2002, 04:31:22 pm »

WY is the best state for the conservative leaning libertarians

WY has some of the lowest personal taxes, no corporate taxes, very low land taxes, a pro-corporate legal system, LP major party status, a strong R presence, lots of wide open spaces, and close loaction to major cities.  WY also has some of the best weather and a central West - Midwest location.


VT is the best state for the liberal leaning libertarians

VT already has open nudity laws, joint homosexual rights, very high taxes, lots of state controlled 'public land', strong anti-corporate laws, a very strong socialist group, pro-welfare laws, a very liberal christian community (women and homosexuals may be church leaders) , and more hippies than anywhere.

WY can handle 25,000 people but has a better chance of winning with only 15,000 than most of the larger states do with as many as 30,000 people.  If 15,000 move to WY it might still win.  WY FSers could lower the sales tax, attract more jobs and companies, legalize pot, end affirimative action, make WY the best home school state, make the already rare gun laws even more rare, make the Drivers L. a little bit more secretive, force groups of armed feds to ask before entering the state, and get ride of the seat belt laws on adults.  WY is close to 500,000 people from CO and another few 100,000 from UT so jobs are certainly there.  WY is also within reach of populated areas of MT and SD.  WY has the 2nd highest livability rating.  WY is in the West where the FSers are more conservative.  WY could be come the free state economicly and one of the most free states personally.  


VT cannot be won unless 25,000-30,000 people moved to the state and even then socialism would still be the subculture. The remaining 10,000 or so (the people that did not move to WY) could move to VT and live there small town, high taxes, anti-corporate, pro-liberal life.  The VT FSers could make pot legal, make assisted suicide legal, stop selective service reg., and make 3rd parties like the Green, Grass Roots, Progressive, and Libertarian Party official major parties.  VT is in the East where the FSers are more liberal.  VT could become the most free state personally and kind of free (in some ways) economicly.

Thus, all FSP members will get what they want.  This is meant to be a serious question or at least help members think.

Of the 10 states, where WY and VT Rank (lower # is better):
Personal Taxes :          WY 3,     VT 9
Possible near-by jobs: WY 4-6,  VT 10
Personal Freedom:       WY 1-3,     VT 4-5
Economic Freedom:      WY 1,     VT 9-10
Gun Laws:                    WY 3-5,  VT 1-4
Cheap Land:                 WY 2-4,  VT ?
Near Entertain. Center: WY 3,    VT 6-8
Corporate Taxes:           WY 1,    VT 9-10
Nudity Laws:                  WY ?,    VT 1
Weather:                        WY 3,    VT 6
Central Location:            WY 2,    VT 6-7
Central to East:              WY 6,    VT 2
Central to West:             WY 1,    VT 8
Amount of private land:  WY 4,    VT 8                          
Total (lower # better)     WY 37,  VT 80

Only human controlled factors:
Personal Taxes :          WY 3,     VT 9
Possible near-by jobs: WY 4-6,  VT 10
Personal Freedom:       WY ?,     VT 1
Economic Freedom:      WY 1,     VT 9-10
Gun Laws:                    WY 3-5,  VT 1-4
Cheap Land:                 WY 1-2,  VT ?
Near Entertain. Center: WY 3,    VT 6-8
Corporate Taxes:           WY 1,    VT 9-10
Nudity Laws:                  WY ?,    VT 1
Total (lower better):       WY 19,  VT 47

Uncontrollable factors:
Weather:                        WY 3,    VT 6
Central Location:            WY 2,    VT 6-7
Central to East:              WY 6,    VT 2
Central to West:             WY 1,    VT 8
Loaction (Costal, CA)      WY 10,  VT 4
Amount of private land:  WY 2,    VT 8
Total (lower better)         WY 24, VT 34

WY has better human controlled conditions, and Better Natural conditions than VT for the FSP to win.  Both states have very small voting populations.  Both states have boarder states with strong LPs.  CO is the home of the LP and is a strong state to feed off of.  NH has more than 2 dozen elected LP members.  VT is the most socialist of all of the states.  This is good on quite a few issues such as child rights, drug laws.  VT has many community villages and also the most powerful 3rd party movement in the country.  VT also has a history of electing libertarians, more so than any other small state.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2003, 03:14:38 pm by FreedomRoad »
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ZionCurtain

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Re:Breaking up FSP - WY for the West - VT for the East
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2002, 11:04:03 pm »

I also had feelings like splitting the FSP into 2 groups one out west and one out east. That way us Westerners have our wide open life style intact and the Easterners get what they want. I don't think the people in charge would agree to do this.
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JasonPSorens

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Re:Breaking up FSP - WY for the West - VT for the East
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2002, 11:22:23 pm »

There's no reason to split up the movement right when we're gaining momentum.  Getting 40,000 participants would be extremely difficult, probably impossible.  IMO anyone who's really serious about liberty will be willing to move just about any state for freedom.  The diehard pro-Easterners and pro-Westerners should get their priorities straight.

(Sorry if this sounds a little grumpy; I've had to deal with a lot of whiners about state "fairness" lately.)
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ZionCurtain

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Re:Breaking up FSP - WY for the West - VT for the East
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2002, 11:37:26 pm »

My personal opinion is that I would have to want to live in the state FSP or no FSP. Why? I am the main provider for a family of 5, with 3 being very young. I would have to move my entire family 3000 miles to a state like NH or DE that has no shot at success with only 20,000. Those facts have been presented time and again. Also who is to say that all 20,000 come through. What if say only 10,000 do the move? I would have just screwed my family up, I would have to uproot my family again to move back west. It is not an easy task. For the single people here it is not as big a risk.
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Solitar

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Re:Breaking up FSP - WY for the West - VT for the East
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2002, 11:58:35 pm »

So who is now saying it is impossible.
If the FSP can't round up 20,000 serious activists worthy of the name and responsibility AND another several tens of thousands who can only move and help support with a vote then, though the "FSP" succeeds, its Free State probably will not -- unless the very easiest state is chosen. ZionCurtain has valid points about Delaware and New Hampshire and his first responsibility to his family.

Freedom Road has a good analysis of the two choices. With the above numbers of activists and voters which could likely be recruited to move, the two smallest states are as likely to succeed as Free States as putting all the eggs in either an Idaho or New Hampshire basket. I expect a divide to happen anyway because there really is a divide between the westerners and easterners that many from each camp will not cross! Thus having a plan "B" of an eastern nexus and a western nexus is worth considering -- especially if it doubles the number of recruits -- both serious activists and those who can only move and help support the effort with a vote and maybe a little bit of help here and there.

Even Jason agrees that I have a point in this thread on the idea of having a second category of voting supporters.
Is 20,000 enough?
Quote
That's a good point, Joe - some people will probably move in who will not be activists, and we'd need to have a separate category for them.  I guess we could include them in the "Friends of the FSP" category.
http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=12;action=display;threadid=369;start=15
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JasonPSorens

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Re:Breaking up FSP - WY for the West - VT for the East
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2002, 12:01:35 am »

Well, you're entitled to your opinion, but all the basic research indicates that 20,000+ could win in any of the 10 candidate states given enough work.  The only question is which states would be easiest to target.  I don't think the FSP should be held hostage to the demands of a small minority devoted to their particular geographical areas.  And it is a small minority - so far over 50% of FSP members haven't opted out of any states, and probably about 75% have opted out of 3 or fewer.

If we get 20,000 signers, I expect at least 15,000 of them to move.  At the very least.  Why would someone sign up and then not move?  Doesn't make sense.  But we'll be trying to get more than 20,000 anyway, for "insurance."
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Solitar

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Re:Breaking up FSP - WY for the West - VT for the East
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2002, 12:27:08 am »

Though I'm sure FreedomRoad was entirely serious in the analysis, it almost sounded tongue- in-cheek OR a challenge, throwing down the gauntlet, a double-dare-ya to the east coast or left leaning FSP'ers and libertarians to "Take Back Vermont" -- literally since even traditional Vermonters feel that way - those who are left  ;)

Even I could be persuaded to move to Vermont to join the fight to liberate not only Vermont, but then also New Hampshire, Maine, and even Massachusetts. Yes, even Massachusetts. The more I research the voting patterns there the more I see evidence of a large repressed contingent of conservatives, independents and even libertarians there. If the northern states went Free, the native resistance in Massachusetts could very well turn that state around. Then Rhode Island too (which was an FSP candidate at one time).

Jason, as to why they would not move. Who is John Galt?
But my compatriots and the cause of liberty has been left hanging out on point too often to discount the likelihood. It would be much better to push hardest for 20,000 serioius political activists and get a broad spectrum "of all types" but heavily loaded with political "slick operatives"  than a broad spectrum heavily loaded with "not tonight, I've got a headache or a party (which gives them a headache), " types.
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Tyler

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Re:Breaking up FSP - WY for the West - VT for the East
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2002, 09:57:54 pm »

Looking at this from the outside it seems like a good idea. After all, being in two states gives you double the chances of success, a fallback position if only one fails, and it will make your group harder to break up. The downsides, not enough people, your resources being spread too thin, etc., make it seem like a poor choice.

The way I see it, you need to choose one state and do the best that you can with it. Splitting in two may well doom the project, especially if one side gets nearly everyone signed up on its behalf, leaving a rump membership in either an eastern or western state. In all honesty, I think you guys have a very small chance of success and that you need to concentrate on finding the single best state. By example then, you will lead the rest of the nation towars a freerer worldview, and, hopefully, the government back to its proper role.
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Nicrocreon

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Re:Breaking up FSP - WY for the West - VT for the East
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2002, 10:45:30 pm »

Ladies and Gentlemen,
FSP members must face facts regarding the movement.  In order for it to work, unity must be paramount.  If all goes well, many states will follow the lead set by the first.

Another thought... the terms liberal and conservative fit within the notions of the existing political structure and are charged with divisive qualities.  In the pure sense, we must all be liberal in order to change the government structure to suit a more free, a more liberal society.  So, no matter what your particular beliefs are regarding abortion, religion, etc., you must face the realityof the world that you want to create to protect your rights will also protect the rights of people of people with which you cannot agree.  Such is the nature of a truly free society and this discussion.
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Kelton

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Re:Breaking up FSP - WY for the West - VT for the East
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2002, 12:46:23 am »

IF THE LAST PLACE ON EARTH TO BE FREE WAS FAR AWAY IN A FOREIGN LAND AMONG A FOREIGN PEOPLE, THEN I WOULD GLADLY LEAVE ALL, TRAVELING ANY WAY I COULD, EVEN RISKING LIFE AND LIMB TO GET THERE, AND, ONCE ARRIVING, I WOULD BE GLAD TO TAKE ON A FOREIGN NAME AND LANGUAGE, AND HAPPILY EKE OUT A LIVING, EVEN IN POVERTY. TEACHING MY CHILDREN THAT THIS IS THEIR MOTHER COUNTRY.  IF I SHOULD EVER THINK THIS COST TOO GREAT A PRICE TO PAY, THEN I WOULD NO LONGER KNOW MYSELF, A DESCENDANT OF THOSE WHO DID ALL THESE THINGS AND MORE FOR FREEDOM.
  -Kelton Baker
« Last Edit: November 11, 2002, 04:54:00 am by exitus »
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Johnny Liberty

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Re:Breaking up FSP - WY for the West - VT for the East
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2002, 04:56:10 am »

This is where I must give Jason S. credit (despite his pro-Confederate leanings); the free state will only be realized as a left-right libertarian coalition. If you split the potential activists/members into two states, geographically isolated, you will not acheive the "critical mass" necessary to influence and/or dominate a state. Unity around core issues in a single state (legalize/liberalize drugs/prostitution, gun rights, lower taxes, sexual freedom, education vouchers/home schooling subsidies, decreased dependence on the welfare/warfare state) is the only realistic way forward.  Any scheme to split into two states will weaken the libertarian forces and play into the state capitalist/socialist desire to marginalize the movement .    
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mlilback

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Re:Breaking up FSP - WY for the West - VT for the East
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2002, 01:28:00 pm »

I agree that splitting things up would be very bad. And I agree with the assessment that you can't really have conservatives -- they oppose change, and the FSP is all about change, and accepting the right of others to live their lives the way they want to.

As to the ratings FreedomRoad posted, I really have to differ on quite a number of them:

> Possible near-by jobs: WY 4-6,  VT 10
> Near Entertain. Center: WY 3,    VT 6-8

VT borders NH, MA, and Canada. Albany is very close, and NYC is only a few hours away. (I've driven to there from Manhattan on Friday and come back Sunday afternoon. If you discount NYC traffic, it isn't even two hours away.) Montreal is less than 2 hours from Burlington and Montpelier. What entertainment centers, compared to NYC, Boston and Montreal, are there near WY? If VT is a 6-8, WY should be a 50. And that's being conservative. (How many major artists actually play concerts in WY? Am I forgetting about sports teams located nearby? And while I'm sure there is fine local theater, it's no comparison to Broadway.)  

The same applies for jobs. I could live in VT and still commute to NYC for a few days a week, working from home the rest of the time. I know a good number of artists and programmers living in VT and they've had no problems with finding work (Burlington has an unemployment rate < 3%). And WY is listed on the FSP state page as having the worst outlook for job growth.

As to cost of living and land, http://www.aft.org/research/reports/col/Colpape3.htm shows that MT and WY have comparable costs of living.

>Amount of private land:  WY 2,    VT ?

The FSP state page shows that VT has a smaller percentage of land owned by the government than WY.

>Personal Taxes :          WY 3,     VT 9

On this one, it looks like you are really off base. http://www.stateline.org/fact.do?factId=601 shows that VT  collects fewer taxes (as percent of income) than WY does. NH looks the best in that regard. (And local taxes aren't as important as state taxes, as they are the easiest to change.)

You really shouldn't post stuff like this without researching it first. You attack Michelle for posting valid numbers for NH while asking to see them for other states, but you produce numbers with no backing and in some cases, numbers that are the opposite of what is on the FSP state research page. Posts like these aren't helping anyone, just hurting.

This is the first (and hopefully last) time I've made a negative post. I really try to stay in a positive frame of mind. But I really felt I had to point out the flaws in your message. (And I'm not saying my stuff is perfect, but I just spent over an hour working on this message to verify numbers.)

And back on the issue of selecting a state, I am largely inclined to only consider an Eastern state. And that's why I haven't actually signed up as an FSP participant yet. I'm not going to list states as opt-outs until I'm positive I'm not willing to live there. I've got a good friend who moved to WY earlier this year and I'm going to try to visit her early next year so I can make a more informed decision.

Mark
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freedomroad

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Re:Breaking up FSP - WY for the West - VT for the East
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2002, 10:24:24 pm »

>mlilback
>I agree that splitting things up would be very bad. And I agree with the >assessment that you can't really have conservatives -- they oppose change, >and the FSP is all about change, and accepting the right of others to live their >lives the way they want to.

>As to the ratings FreedomRoad posted, I really have to differ on quite a number >of them:

>> Possible near-by jobs: WY 4-6,  VT 10
>> Near Entertain. Center: WY 3,    VT 6-8

>VT borders NH, MA, and Canada.

I agree, I hope this means we have found common ground :)

>Albany is very close, and NYC is only a few hours away.

I also agree with this.  Albany does offer some jobs.  However, Albany does have a worse job outlook then Salt Lake City and worse or better depending on the numbers than Billings and Ft. Collins.  I did not figure for driving to NYC.  From WY, you can drive to Denver (in much less time) and I did not figure driving to Denver for jobs, either.

>Montreal is less than 2 hours from Burlington and Montpelier.

I agree, but Montreal is not exactly the best place for an English speaking American to work.

>What entertainment centers, compared to NYC, Boston and Montreal, are there near WY?

I would compare Denver to Boston and Montreal.  However, when doing my comparison I did not figue distances as far away as NYC or Boston.  I looked at Albany and Montreal for VT and Salt Lake City and Denver for WY.  This gave WY a 3 and VT a 6-8.

> If VT is a 6-8, WY should be a 50.

Or a 3  ;D

>The same applies for jobs. I could live in VT and still commute to NYC for a few >days a week, working from home the rest of the time.

You certainly could and I glad you have a possible plan.  I could live in SD and commute to St. Paul, Denver, Lincoln, Omaha, and De Moines.  However, I will not.  I could and would live in WY and commute to Ft. Collins, Rapid City, Billings, and Salt Lake City.  I figured I (and many other people) would be willing to travel 35min to 70min to get to work everyday.  I figured most people would not be willing to travel longer than that and some people would not even be willing to travel that long.  

>And WY is listed on the FSP state page as having the worst outlook for job growth.

Right.  That lists instate job growth.  WY does have the least amount of people so this can be somewhat expected.  The FSP state page does not include expected job growth within a 1 hour drive of the 10 states, though.  I think this figure would be much more useful for those of us that like working.

>>Amount of private land:  WY 4,    VT 8

>The FSP state page shows that VT has a smaller percentage of land owned by >the government than WY.

This is not related to amount of private land.
MT has the most amount of private land followed by WY.
AK and ME have a large amount of private land.
VT is very low in this ranking.
One of the FSP members posted the exact figures in the forum if you need to look them over.

update: exact figures (posted by Joe):
Amount of land NOT owned by federal or state governments in square miles.
(this is not all privately owned since local city, county, and special districts own some)
area left  State  (federal&state ownership of total area in square miles)
91,010  Montana (54,545 of 145,556)
69,186  South Dakota (6,712 of 75,898)
62,684  North Dakota (6,310 of 68,994)
42,782  Wyoming (54,323 of 97,105)
29,103  Maine (1,762 of 30,865)
24,520  Idaho (58,231 of 82,751)
23,770  Alaska (546,605 of 570,374)
 7,791  Vermont (1,458 of 9,249)
  7,360  New Hampshire (1,609 of 8,969)
  1,812  Delaware (143 of 1,955)

>>Personal Taxes :          WY 3,     VT 9

>On this one, it looks like you are really off base. http://www.stateline.org/fact.do?factId=601[/url] shows that VT  collects fewer >taxes (as percent of income) than WY does.

I was unable to find the data you speak of on that page (though it might be there).  I did find the opposite data on the page, though.

State Tax Collection as Percent of Income, 2001  
 
Fact Name                                                                                VT  WY  US Data  
State Tax Collection as a Percent of Income, 1997 (Percent)  6.9  6.5  6.9  
State Tax Collection as a Percent of Income, 1998 (Percent)  7.1  7.9  7.0  
State Tax Collection as a Percent of Income, 1999 (Percent)  6.9  6.8  6.8  
State Tax Collection as a Percent of Income, 2000 (Percent)  9.6  7.6  7.0  
State Tax Collection as a Percent of Income, 2001 (Percent)  9.5  8.3  null  
 
State Tax Collection by Source, 2001  
 
Fact Name                                       VT   WY   US Data  
Corporate Income, 1999 (Percent)  4.9  none  6.1  
Corporate Income, 2001 (Percent)  2.9  none  5.7  
Individual Income, 1999 (Percent)  37.9 none  34.5  
Individual Income, 2001 (Percent)  31.1  none 37.1  
Other, 1999 (Percent)  12.1  34.9  9.1  
Other, 2001 (Percent)  8.2  46.3  9.2  
Per Capita State Tax Collection, 1999 (Dollars)  1704  1694  1835  
Per Capita State Tax Collection, 2001 (Dollars)  2,533  2,274  1,968  
Property, 1999 (Percent)  0.9  12.2  2.3  
Property, 2001 (Percent)  23.7  9.8  null  
Sales, 1999 (Percent)  20.3  42.8  33.2  
Sales, 2001 (Percent)  13.8  36.1  null  
Selective Sales, 1999 (Percent)  23.9  10.1  14.8  
Selective Sales, 2001 (Percent)  20.3  7.8  14.1  
 
Total State Tax Collections (millions of dollars), 2001  
 
Fact Name                                                                    VT   WY   US Data  
Total State Tax Collections, 1997 (Millions of Dollars)  899  662  443493  
Total State Tax Collections, 1998 (Millions of Dollars)  958  856  474991  
Total State Tax Collections, 1999 (Millions of Dollars)  1012  813  499510  
Total State Tax Collections, 2000 (Millions of Dollars)  1,471  964  539,640  
Total State Tax Collections, 2001 (Millions of Dollars)  1,553  1,124  559,225  
 

>You really shouldn't post stuff like this without researching it first.

I researched it for a great deal of time.

>You attack Michelle for posting valid numbers for NH while asking to see them for other states,

I do not remember doing this.  And, Michelle, if I attacked you I am sorry.  I am trying to be friendly and factual in all of my dealings with the FSP.

>but you produce numbers with no backing and in some cases, numbers that are >the opposite of what is on the FSP state research page. Posts like these aren't >helping anyone, just hurting.

I never posted anything that was the opposite of what was posted on the free state project state research page.  I do feel the state research pages does need some correcting, though I'll deal with that in somewhere other then this post.  For a few on my references see http://thestc.com/STrates.stm and www.taxfoundation.org .

>But I really felt I had to point out the flaws in your message.

I am glad you are trying to help me.  That is what we need, 1000s of people helping each other make a free state.

> And that's why I haven't actually signed up as an FSP participant yet. I'm not going to list states as opt-outs until I'm positive I'm not willing to live there.

I hope you do sign up.  I am of the opinion that you could do many great things to help the FSP.

>I've got a good friend who moved to WY earlier this year and I'm going to try to visit her early next year so I can make a more informed decision.

I am looking forward to your report.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2002, 02:25:28 pm by FreedomRoad »
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ZionCurtain

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Re:Breaking up FSP - WY for the West - VT for the East
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2002, 11:32:27 pm »

(I've driven to there from Manhattan on Friday and come back Sunday afternoon. If you discount NYC traffic, it isn't even two hours away.)
I used to live in Connecticut, Groton to be exact and my brother lives in Wallingford currently. So from experience I have to say driving from NH to NYC would most definitely take more than 2 hours try 5 hours with traffic if you are lucky maybe 4. Please be honest in your dealings here because I know it takes 2 hours just from Groton to NYC.
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JasonPSorens

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Re:Breaking up FSP - WY for the West - VT for the East
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2002, 05:55:20 pm »

This is where I must give Jason S. credit (despite his pro-Confederate leanings);

Off-topic note: I'm actually both anti-Confederate and anti-Lincoln.  Had I lived during the Civil War, I probably would have emigrated (or gone to the West) rather than be forced to pick a dog in that fight.
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism
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anything