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Author Topic: Simple - Pick the Smallest...  (Read 17682 times)

libertyVSlibertine

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Simple - Pick the Smallest...
« on: November 03, 2002, 01:48:19 am »

The goal of the project is to reform a state.  All of the stated objectives indicate choosing the smallest.

It's difficult to get people to relocate.  The capability to challenge the Free State Contingent simply won't be there if a large enough percentage of population is committed to the cause.

No other criterion is logical or sensible, providing the goal is success.

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ZionCurtain

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Re:Simple - Pick the Smallest...
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2002, 04:37:34 pm »

I agree. Alot of the people on this board are not serious about the success of the project.

Seeing that a majority of US citizens live in the eastern portion of the country they vote for NH because they wish to stay close to home. They want NH even if it will fail there rather than picking Wyoming or North Dakota where the chance are greatly increased.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2002, 09:21:27 pm by ZionCurtain »
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mdw

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Re:Simple - Pick the Smallest...
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2002, 06:13:55 pm »

While I agree that state population is the single most important factor, and that undue emphasis is sometime placed on NH due to QOL (quality of life) issues, there other important factors in addition to population that deserve careful consideration.

For example, when advocating a state one must consider what type of vested interests exist and if these could run counter to the FSP goals. Might the oil interests in Alaska or the mineral / chemical interests in Wyoming rule the state, almost irrespective of electoral outcomes? Could the FSP achive political goals that ran counter to the DuPont agenda in Delaware? Furthermore, there is a need to take into account the existing culture. Is the FSP likely to be embraced at the local level, or will there be extreme resistance?

Please do not denigrate others for considering various aspects of which state should be selected as the target state. Ad hominem statements do nothing to further the goals of the FSP. Make the contributions you are able to make and persuade others using reason, not character assasination.

Regards,
mdw
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"It is therefore the inhabitants themselves who permit, or, rather, bring about, their own subjection, since by ceasing to submit they would put an end to their servitude."
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libertyVSlibertine

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Re:Simple - Pick the Smallest...
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2002, 07:16:59 pm »

That's good, as there were no ad hominem attacks, nor character assasinations in my note or the response to it, just honest analysis of the situation.  The responder believes that some persons recommend states at times based on personal preference rather than success.  This is just an analysis.  He is almost certainly correct.  It is a bit naive to assume that this doesn't happen.

We can't engineer all of those things.  If committed individuals move to the least populous state and are committed, they will be able to overcome whatever difficulties are present because they will win all of the votes.

Simple numbers, that's the way to go.  Get the highest percentage of voting block!
« Last Edit: November 03, 2002, 07:19:04 pm by libertyVSlibertine »
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Penfist

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Re:Simple - Pick the Smallest...
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2002, 07:55:39 pm »

If committed individuals move to the least populous state and are committed, they will be able to overcome whatever difficulties are present because they will win all of the votes.

The Free State Project won't fail or succeed based on the raw population of the state we move to. The project will fail or succeed based on what kind of neighbors the 20,000 new residents prove to be. We could move to a state with 500,000 or a state with 1.5 million. It really won't matter. What will matter is what those people think of us and whether or not it motivates them to vote with us or against us.

I'll move wherever we pick as a group, but I have to disagree that the smallest population state has the best chance of success. It's quite a bit more complicated than that.
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mdw

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Re:Simple - Pick the Smallest...
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2002, 08:11:14 pm »

I agree. Alot of the people on this board are not sreious about the success of the project.

LvsL, Z.C. et al.-

Perhaps it was a bit rash of me use the term "character assasination". However, the above comment did indeed strike me as an insult and gross over-generalization. "Alot" of the people on this board are in fact FSP members. As FSPers they have committed to moving their entire life to a completely different and potentially distant locale. That strikes me as a "serious" level of commitment indeed.

To argue that a state should or should not be considered because of its location on the East Coast is one thing. To argue that people who disagree with a particular position are not serious seems unfounded. Perhaps this low bandwidth online medium is partially to blame, so we should all be careful about how we articulate our ideas. Let us focus on the factual arguments at hand and use reason to make the best choice. Let us leave aside questions of character or motivation that are difficult to determine in a web-based forum. Perhaps the best approach in a venture such as ours is to grant everyone some modicum of respect and standing until they prove that they do not deserve it.

Regards,
mdw


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"It is therefore the inhabitants themselves who permit, or, rather, bring about, their own subjection, since by ceasing to submit they would put an end to their servitude."
--Éttiene de la Boétie, 1552

ZionCurtain

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Re:Simple - Pick the Smallest...
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2002, 09:38:13 pm »

My post may have seemed more harsh than was intended. I guess maybe it is because I want it to be a success. I just wonder how many people opt out if there state is not picked. I am a little skeptical when it comes to human nature.
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Eddie_Bradford

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Re:Simple - Pick the Smallest...
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2002, 12:28:48 am »

No other criteria is more important but an extremely close second is job prospects because that directly affects the probably of actually getting people to move to a state.  Job prospects = proximity to a large metropolitan city.

Personally I think anyone who thinks that people will be actually be able to find a job and move to one of Western states under consideration have their heads in the clouds and are dreaming about some furture Arachist  utopia empire that will never come close to existance.

-Eddie
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ZionCurtain

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Re:Simple - Pick the Smallest...
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2002, 09:06:03 am »

You are right Eddie there are no jobs out west. Everyone must move to the Eastern seaboard to work in Boston or such. That is ludicrous. Maybe you all should watch Braveheart.

"You all are so afraid to give up your titles and posessions for one chance at actually being free." said William Wallace. Or something like that.

« Last Edit: November 04, 2002, 12:20:05 pm by ZionCurtain »
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Elizabeth

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Re:Simple - Pick the Smallest...
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2002, 12:14:44 pm »

Quote
author=ZionCurtain
You are right Eddie there are no jobs out west.

Umm... I live out west, am not on welfare, and not a thief, but managed to purchase a few DVD's the other day (with money I earned). So I suppose there might be a job or two out this way if someone wishes to work.

Ummm... I think ZC was being sarcastic.  ;)
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ZionCurtain

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Re:Simple - Pick the Smallest...
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2002, 12:19:01 pm »

Quote
author=ZionCurtain
You are right Eddie there are no jobs out west.

Umm... I live out west, am not on welfare, and not a thief, but managed to purchase a few DVD's the other day (with money I earned). So I suppose there might be a job or two out this way if someone wishes to work.

Ummm... I think ZC was being sarcastic.  ;)
Yes, I was being sarcastic. I live out west therefore I can also say there are jobs out here.
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libertyVSlibertine

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Re:Simple - Pick the Smallest...
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2002, 10:39:05 pm »

Consider this, if you really believe in freedom...

If the majority of votes are cast for Freedom, if government is taken out of the way, the FSP state will be the most desirable place to be.  It has little to do with jobs or with what sort of neighbors those who relocate are (though those are important), it has to do with the benefits of freedom.

Do you really believe?

If so, the votes to repeal tyrannical government are the only real issue.

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PongGod

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Re:Simple - Pick the Smallest...
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2002, 11:49:15 pm »

Consider this, if you really believe in freedom...

If the majority of votes are cast for Freedom, if government is taken out of the way, the FSP state will be the most desirable place to be.  It has little to do with jobs or with what sort of neighbors those who relocate are (though those are important), it has to do with the benefits of freedom.

Do you really believe?

If so, the votes to repeal tyrannical government are the only real issue.

You're correct about the votes, but we cannot succeed solely with the votes of the immigrant FSPers.  Moving to a state where a sizeable portion of the native population is already in agreement (or very nearly so) with our objectives, gives us a big boost.  I think our chance of success in NH would be much greater than in much less populated VT, for example.
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Chuckster

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Re:Simple - Pick the Smallest...
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2002, 09:05:10 pm »

Consider this, if you really believe in freedom...

If the majority of votes are cast for Freedom, if government is taken out of the way, the FSP state will be the most desirable place to be.  It has little to do with jobs or with what sort of neighbors those who relocate are (though those are important), it has to do with the benefits of freedom.

Do you really believe?

If so, the votes to repeal tyrannical government are the only real issue.

You're correct about the votes, but we cannot succeed solely with the votes of the immigrant FSPers.  Moving to a state where a sizeable portion of the native population is already in agreement (or very nearly so) with our objectives, gives us a big boost.  I think our chance of success in NH would be much greater than in much less populated VT, for example.

I wouldn't be too sure about Vermonters being less in agreement with FSP ideals than New Hamsters or that FSP would be more likely to succeed in NH than in VT.  From what I've been able to learn about VT over the past four years in my personal quest for a better place to live (The result of intensive research of my own including numerous visits to the state and consultations with Vermont farmers, real estate agents, contractors etc.) I've come to the conclusion that the real people who live in Vermont share most of the same ideals that Free Staters do.  There is even a secessionist faction in Vermont!  

Rural Vermonters I have met are, without exception, very independent and classically liberal or Libertarian in thier views.  Excepting Burlington, a university town and, like all such, a hotbed of leftist political thinking, Vermonters are rural conservatives.  Almost all of whom are angry at the leftist takeover of the state a few years ago. The same qualities that made it possible for the leftists to hijack the state make it a good choice for FSP and , given the ubiquitousness of the "Take Back Vermont" signs on barns throughout the state, I'd say we'd get good support from Vermonters.

Vermont also has the advantages of cheap land and housing (to a lesser extent in Chittenden county) and an entreprenuer friendly environment.  The economic bottom line is actually better than NH as far as taxation as a % of income goes.  The first order of business I think would be to repeal the VERY unpopular Act 60 (Statewide property tax).  Get that done and we will be very popular with the locals and improve the economic opportunities even more.

Besides, don't forget the importance of the NH primaries in the nat'l Prez election.  There is a lot at stake for the major parties in NH and they won't take kindly to us disrupting that.  That will mean LOTS of $$$ poured in to the state to campaign for the major players and will certainly have a negative effect on the chances for Libertarians and independents; yes, even in state races.

Agreed that once the Free State has been chosen and changes have begun; when "government is taken out of the way, the FSP state will be the most desirable place to be. " But first FSP members will have to move in and get established and begin the political process.  This will require the kind of opportunities that will allow each of us to flourish individually.  The vanguard will have to set the example for the rest to follow therefore the state chosen must be amenable to economic prosperity.  From my point of view this pretty much rules out the Western states :'(

Purely personal preference of course (Or is it?) but my analysis led me to buy property in VT.  Now that I have discovered FSP, I might consider selling and moving to NH or ME, but maybe not.  I think that if  FSP chooses one of these three states, all three might eventually come into the fold.  I don't see this happening in the West.

As an aside; long before I discovered FSP, the wife and I decided to leave Hawaii and relocate to the mainland.  Our first look choices were MT, WY, ID, AZ, NM, SD, VT, NH and ME.  We eventually narrowed it down to MT, and VT.  We visited both but since I am a fourth generation Vermonter that was my preference.  My wife, originally from BC, favored MT until we spent more time in VT and got to know the people and places better (I had left VT in 1959 and didn't go back again 'til 2000).  Since our plan was to build a horse farm we both originally thought that MT would be the natural best choice but after visiting a few Morgan Horse farms in VT we both agreed.  VT (And NH and ME) have all of the advantages of the Western states plus better economic opportunities and cultural amenities.
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freedomroad

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Re:Simple - Pick the Smallest...
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2002, 12:01:46 am »

If we want to pick the smallest possible state that can make it we need to look at the 5 states with the lowest voter turnout in the 2002 November election.

1. WY 185,195 (1/2 of voters 92,597.5)
2. AK 197,352 (1/2 of voters 98,676)
3. VT 226,458 (1/2 of voters 113,229)
4. ND 230,420 (1/2 of voters 115,210)
5. DE 232,152 (1/2 of voters 116,076)

WY and AK voted R
VT, ND, and DE voted D

WY has a some-what strong LP party
AK's Green Party did better than its LP and AI parties combined.

What about jobs in these 5 states?

The order is:
1. DE
2. AK
3. WY
4/5 VT/ND

What about out of state possible jobs, tele-commuting, and the like?
1. DE
2. WY
3. ND
4. VT
5. AK

What about crime?
1. ND/VT
3. WY
4. AK
5. DE

What about cost of living?
1. ND
2. WY
3. VT
4. DE
5. AK

Wyoming comes out on top in the main, most important factor.
In the minor factors, Wyoming is usually in the middle or higher.  The other state with very few voters during the 2002 election is Alaska.  However, AK ranks near the bottom in the minor factors.

If population or number of voters, or voting age population, or primary voters is the most important factor, then Wyoming is by far, the best state.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2003, 02:22:28 am by FreedomRoad »
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