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Author Topic: Wyoming or Montana  (Read 82341 times)

stpeter

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Re:Wyoming or Montana
« Reply #75 on: November 03, 2002, 08:22:37 pm »

I started writing a report on Wyoming but it's missing many details so Anita Joule will probably finish it. However, we might consider this:

Wyoming is the smallest state in terms of both voting population and total population. 20,000 FSP "porcupines" would be almost 10% of Wyoming's year-2000 voting population of 213,000, and 4% of the total population. Contrast this with some other states under active consideration (this is not a complete list, but paints the picture): Wyoming (9.4 / 4.0), Alaska (7 / 3.2), North Dakota (7 / 3.1), Delaware (6.1 / 2.6), Montana (4.9 / 2.2), New Hampshire (3.5 / 1.6).

These are not numbers for idle speculation, but will have a real impact on porcupines once they get busy in their adopted state. Consider a small city of around 30,000 people (e.g., Laramie, WY; Juneau, AK; Minot, ND; Newark, DE; Bozeman, MT; Rochester, NH). At Wyoming percentages (4% of the total population), there would be 1200 porcupines in town. The numbers look less and less appealing as one goes down the list: AK 960, ND 930, DE 780, MT 660, NH 480. That's 1200 people to do the everyday tasks involved in building a free society: writing letters, running campaigns, serving in office, convincing neighbors, growing businesses, teaching children, offering alternatives to government services, helping newcomers, strengthening the ties of community, and so on. I don't know about you, but I'd prefer to have as many compatriots as possible around when times get tough.
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stpeter

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Re:Wyoming or Montana
« Reply #76 on: November 03, 2002, 08:25:07 pm »

Some more numbers I found while researching Wyoming: only 0.2% of Wyoming residents were on welfare as of the year 2000; this compares to NH 1.1%, ND 1.2%, MT 1.5%, DE 2.2%, and AK 3.9%!  Source: http://www.acf.dhhs.gov/news/stats/caseload.htm
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ZionCurtain

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Re:Wyoming or Montana
« Reply #77 on: November 03, 2002, 09:53:31 pm »

Good work.

When I first voiced my sentiments on states I went with Montana, much the same way the easterners went with NH. I thought it would be easier on my family to move to a state closer to where we live. Moving all the way across country would be a very difficult task. Add to that the fact that NH is surrounded by all those socialist states, it is not a move I would be able to commit. Which is why it is my opt out state. I have become convinced with what I have read that Wyoming and North Dakota should be the only 2 candidates at all. I hope people reading the data come to the same conclusions also.
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JT

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Re:Wyoming or Montana
« Reply #78 on: November 03, 2002, 10:39:42 pm »

I just don't think ND's population would be very receptive to us.  MT would be better.  I think overall, WY is the best choice.  I think other people know that too, but they aren't ready to admit it.
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stpeter

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Re:Wyoming or Montana
« Reply #79 on: November 03, 2002, 10:52:52 pm »

Hey Solitar, where are those numbers you posted about percentage of the population born outside the state? IIRC, Maine and the Dakotas scored very poorly on the "outsiders" measure, whereas Alaska, Wyoming, and NH scoring quite favorably. But I can't find your post in the forums here....
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archy

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Re:Wyoming or Montana
« Reply #80 on: November 04, 2002, 02:37:52 pm »

I just don't think ND's population would be very receptive to us.  MT would be better.  I think overall, WY is the best choice.  I think other people know that too, but they aren't ready to admit it.

Even with *only* 20K Porcupine voters we'd be about one-tenth of the voting populace in Wyoming, which has 23 counties. ND has 53, MT has 56 [and neighboring SD has 44]

I'm not as concerned about the lack of seacoast/ international borders considering the rail infrastructure and airport accessability in Wyoming, though some runway expansion to circa 10,000-foot runways for handling widebody/international air traffic would be an eventual needed improvement.

And I have 640 acres of family land in Weston County, which might be made available to the FSP project once the migration begins. Be warned, however that the state bird out that way is a rock. The state flower is a rock. The state tree, is a rock. And so forth...

Think about the *Devil's Tower* scenes from the *Close Encounters* movie for an idea of what the countryside's like.

-archy-/-
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sjolley

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Re:Wyoming or Montana
« Reply #81 on: November 04, 2002, 04:45:57 pm »


I'd truly hate to see a lot of that research as well as the reasoning lost under miles of stuff, especially when its likely it will be useful for future study by not only present members, but new members as well.

I suspect for a new member this situation could be a lot more difficult, as they would not know what has been covered and what hasn't. And reading the entire site contents or searching for it? I've been here a while now and I haven't read the entire site - I doubt if I ever will. And the search? Sheesh. Sorry to say this, but it works, but not all that good.

As a new member to this group.  I couldn't agree more.  I will wait until I have read more threads before I give my reasoning, but I would recommend Wyoming first and then Montana.  :)
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ZionCurtain

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Re:Wyoming or Montana
« Reply #82 on: November 04, 2002, 06:04:26 pm »

I never noticed before but Ft. Collins, Colorado is less than an 45 minute drive from Cheyenne, Wyoming.  I have heard the commute to Denver is rough but what about Fort Collins?

I did a little checking and found that over 567,697 people live within a hour of Cheyenne. Most of it is in Colorado but none the less if someone can't find a job in that area they are not really looking.

By the way my calculations are from the census 2000. Taking Larimer and Weld counties in Colorado and Laramie and Albany counties in Wyoming.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2002, 06:28:58 pm by ZionCurtain »
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stpeter

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Re:Wyoming or Montana
« Reply #83 on: November 04, 2002, 11:35:07 pm »

I never noticed before but Ft. Collins, Colorado is less than an 45 minute drive from Cheyenne, Wyoming.  I have heard the commute to Denver is rough but what about Fort Collins?

Fort Collins is basically just a big college town (Colorado State University is located there), and folks commute from there to Denver because the job market ain't so hot in The Fort. Now, if some enterprising porcupine wanted to start a commuter train from Cheyenne through Fort Collins to Denver, we'd be all set (the rail lines are in place). I work 2 blocks from Union Station in downtown Denver, and that would work for me. ;)
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PongGod

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Re:Wyoming or Montana
« Reply #84 on: November 05, 2002, 01:21:22 am »

While doing some web browsing for golf spots in Montana and Wyoming, I stumbled onto this economic report that is rather optimistic about Wyoming:  http://eadiv.state.wy.us/wef/wef.htm.

Perhaps this might change some minds of those who otherwise like Wyoming, but have concerns about its employment viability.
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Robert H.

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Re:Wyoming or Montana
« Reply #85 on: November 05, 2002, 01:33:56 am »

Thanks, P.G.

Wyoming seems to offer so much promise in every other area that I'm glad to see an optomistic look at its economic situation.  Bearing in mind that our move will be gradual, that we will create jobs by our mere presence, and bring some business interest with us as well, we should think very seriously about this state.

And St Peter's comments are also helpful with regard to Cheyenne's proximity to communities in Colorado.  

Robert H.

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Wyoming Info
« Reply #86 on: November 05, 2002, 04:46:39 am »

The following are a few interesting links about Wyoming:

Official State Page

http://www.state.wy.us/

Hey, how many state governors wear a cowboy hat in public?  This has got to be a great place!   ;D

Wyoming Facts Page

http://eadiv.state.wy.us/Wy_facts/facts02.pdf

This page lists everything from population stats to % of sunny days in a year.  It is also laid out in table format, so it's very easy to read.  It is in .pdf format, so you have to have Acrobat installed, but if you don't, you can download it for free.

Wyoming Libertarian Party Homepage

http://www.geocities.com/wyolp/

This is a rather well done site compared to many LP sites that I've seen out there, including Montana's.  There's a lot of information and humor here.

Constitution of Wyoming

http://legisweb.state.wy.us/statutes/titles/title97.htm

Excerpt:  "All power is inherent in the people, and all free governments are founded on their authority, and instituted for their peace, safety and happiness; for the advancement of these ends they have at all times an inalienable and indefeasible right to alter, reform or abolish the government in such manner as they may think proper."

Of Wyoming's 23 counties, only one had a majority of registered Democratic voters in the 2000 general election: Sweetwater County.

Sweetwater County (2000 voter registration):  Democrat - 9,304 to Republican - 5,526...Libertarian - 6, and "other:"  1,231...for a grand total of:  16,067 registered voters.

Interestingly enough though, look how the 2000 general election vote went in Sweetwater County:

Bush - 9,425
Gore - 5,521
Buchanan - 323
Haeglin (Natural Law) - 21
Browne - 112
Phillips (I) - 67

Total votes cast:  15,469 out of 16,067 registered voters.  Unless I misread this, a large number of Democrats must have voted for Bush.  Hmmm...  Also, according to the state-wide returns for 2000, Gore failed to win a majority in any Wyoming counties, including the only county in which there were a majority of registered Democrats!  As of 10/31/02, Sweetwater remains the only Wyoming county in which Democrats have a majority of registered voters:  (D) 9,329 to (R) 6,339.

Also as of 10/31/02, there were a total of 241,200 registered voters in the entire state.   If the FSP was there now, adding our targeted membership of 20,000, we would (I hope) raise the total number of registered voters to 261,200, and of that number, we would account for 7.7% of it by ourselves.

Source for election info comes from the Wyoming Secretary of State's election page:  http://soswy.state.wy.us/election/election.htm

« Last Edit: November 05, 2002, 07:00:42 am by Robert Hawes »
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PongGod

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Re:Wyoming or Montana
« Reply #87 on: November 05, 2002, 04:39:59 pm »

Nice research, Robert.  I remember way back in the beginning of FSP, I seemed to think Wyoming was a good prospect, but then soon began changing my mind in favor of New Mexico, Montana, and New Hampshire.  Now, I'm starting to think Wyoming might be a top candidate again.  Doesn't it have the lowest population of the ten states still being considered?
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ZionCurtain

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Re:Wyoming or Montana
« Reply #88 on: November 05, 2002, 06:27:07 pm »

I never noticed before but Ft. Collins, Colorado is less than an 45 minute drive from Cheyenne, Wyoming.  I have heard the commute to Denver is rough but what about Fort Collins?

Fort Collins is basically just a big college town (Colorado State University is located there), and folks commute from there to Denver because the job market ain't so hot in The Fort. Now, if some enterprising porcupine wanted to start a commuter train from Cheyenne through Fort Collins to Denver, we'd be all set (the rail lines are in place). I work 2 blocks from Union Station in downtown Denver, and that would work for me. ;)
Not to dispute you or anything but are you saying that a majority of the residents of Larimer and Weld county commute to Denver? That is over 400,000 people makes for one hell of a traffic jam.  ;D   I am assuming you mean they commute for the higher paying jobs.
Would it be feasible, weather wise, to commute from Cheyenne to Fort Collins area?
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stpeter

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Re:Wyoming or Montana
« Reply #89 on: November 05, 2002, 11:39:55 pm »

I just said folks commute from The Fort to Denver, not that everyone does! And yes, one could commute from Cheyenne to Fort Collins. Sometimes that stretch of road closes when there are blizzard conditions, but it doesn't happen that often.
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