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Author Topic: Maine Report  (Read 12736 times)

JasonPSorens

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Maine Report
« on: August 28, 2002, 08:03:07 pm »

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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

percy, aka tntsmum

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Re:Maine Report
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2002, 06:24:06 am »

Quote

...b]Maine is the only state that has initiative and referendum process and the only one with term limits, thus receiving a 4 in each category while the others did not score.  Adding these scores pushed Maine into first place ahead of New Hampshire leaving the other two in the same places...[/b][/size]
Worthy of note too is the very long seacoast and border with Canada.
...Maine's coast, on the other hand, is of such length, wildness, and independence (go out to Eastport to understand why I say that) that it is free in a liberty sense.
The border with Canada is so extensive and so "wild" that in is essentially invisible and porous to anyone wanting to cross. Border crossers essentially abide by the honor system because there are so many other ways in those hundreds of miles to cross if you wish to. And if you are camping, hunting, fishing, canoeing, snowmobiling or snowshoeing, you can cross and cross back without knowing it (especially if you are not looking about too attentively) Oops! :-X

The list of airports missed one major one -- the ex - Loring Air Force Base north of Caribou which is likely the largest of them all ...It is an international class airport capable of landing anything but the space shuttle. http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=325
I echo all that... fantastic report. And for those who think "cold" when they think Maine.... think again. I spent much of my childhood in Maine and the summers in Maine are warm and sunny (especially near the coastal towns of Kittery, Ogunquit, Kennebunkport etc.). They also have great beaches.
I believe the enormous coastline, HUGE LAND MASS, long Canadian border and the independent spirit of these folks ( I'm recalling another thread happens to address a symptom of this - secession movement in Northern Maine) are TREMENDOUS selling points for Maine.
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JasonPSorens

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Re:Maine Report
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2002, 10:02:11 am »

It was a good report.  But let's remember that on the state analysis, even when you heavily weighted coastline and low population density (high land area), Maine did not do well.  This is the case even though NH has a lower rating on coastline than Maine, because it has a smaller coastline.  Maine's economic situation is really bad for its size, and its number of voters is probably too high.  Amanda thought this doesn't matter, but I think it's one of the most important factors.  None of the states we're considering are terribly sympathetic to our ideas, so the more visible we are in the population, the better.  In a state like Maine, we might be able to take the state back from the Democrats, but the chances of creating a free society are, in my view, rather low.
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

Solitar

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Re:Maine Report - number of voters
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2002, 01:15:20 am »

Re-inserting my above post with some changes...

I can vouch for much of the report because I spent over three years in Maine from north of Caribou, to Jackman in the west, and Orono in the central, and long weekend on the coast at Eastport.
http://www.freestateproject.org/initiative.htm

From our experience in Colorado with inititatives that have reined in our governments and enabled average people to get stuff changed which the legislature would never have tackled, the quote below is vitally important to the FSP.
Quote
Maine is the only state that has initiative and referendum process and the only one with term limits, thus receiving a 4 in each category while the others did not score.  Adding these scores pushed Maine into first place ahead of New Hampshire leaving the other two in the same places.  Since these categories were not truly “comparative,” I decided not to officially count them, but I think they are extremely important and certainly worth mentioning.
I note that other states have initiative and/or referendum processes as good as or better than Maines. See this report but also look at the state constitutions since Wyoming is marked down more than it should be.
http://www.freestateproject.org/initiative.htm

Worthy of note too is the very long seacoast and border with Canada.  Maine's coast is of such length, wildness, and independence (go out to Eastport to understand why I say that) that it is free in a liberty sense.

Northern Maine is recruiting people and businesses to replace over ten thousand people it lost when the Air Force closed a base north of Caribou (where I was stationed). The ex - Loring Air Force Base north of Caribou is the largest airport in Maine -- given the length of runway, number of facilities, and acreage. It is an international class airport capable of landing anything but the space shuttle. Locals there are trying to recruit businesses to turn it into a commercial center to rival anything in southern Maine. See this thread where I post more info.
North Maine recruits businesses
http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=325

Jason,
You keep bringing up the number of voters being too high in Maine. Of the candidate states Maine does have the highest voter turnout but, as I document over on the over on the "More Criteria Thread", if a controversial issue brings out a similarly high turnout in any of the candidate state, then Maine, New Hampshire and Idaho are nearly equal. Their over 18 numbers are  973,685 , 926,224 and 924,923 respectively. On that thread I also document fore each of the ten candidates states the 1992 Independent vote which. For the above three states it was 30.44% or 206,820 in Maine, 22.56% or 121,337 in New Hampshire, and  27.04% or 130,395 in Idaho. Please refer to that thread for more info.
http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=247
« Last Edit: August 18, 2003, 03:09:16 am by Joe, aka, Solitar »
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Charley

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Re:Maine Report
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2002, 09:32:36 am »

I think that 1992 was an abberation.  Perot and the media who pushed his candidancy drew votes from the GOP.  
Is there a URL that shows trend lines for the independant vote??

 
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JasonPSorens

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Re:Maine Report
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2002, 09:42:07 am »

Well, we'll get people stirred up no matter where we go, so voting participation would probably rise in Maine as well.

I also disagree with the way Amanda did her analysis of the 4 Eastern states.  You should absolutely not weight each factor equally; we do have a good idea of the relative importance of factors.  For example, lack of dependence on the fedgov and projected number of jobs are both critical.  Maine is by far the worst on the East Coast on federal dependence and is 3rd in jobs, better only than tiny Vermont.  Also, assigning points to 1st, 2nd, and 3rd the way the report did is arbitrary.  It doesn't take into account distances between those, the way the state comparison spreadsheet does.  Three states could be all clustered together, and then one state could be far, far worse, but the distances among them according to the method used in the Maine report would be the same.
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

di540

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Re:Maine Report
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2002, 10:56:30 am »

The criterion of federal dependence isn't clear, and isn't measured well even if it was. Maine will be ensnared in federal maritime regulations & programmes by having a large coastline: more coast guard workers etc. And while it doesn't have native reserves, the federal gov't still has a role in dealing w/Native groups, such as the Micmacs. Having a long border, there will also be more border patrol & customs agents. On the other hand Maine has the lowest degree of federal land ownership, which can be compared directly to the other states, and in conjunction w/a low voter No in 2010, should qualify Maine for the final vote. Maine is the only state which suffered a loss of voters during the 90s, partly because it is the only candidate NE state to have more people moving out than into the state. A fringe benefit would be a cheap housing market. In the 1990s, net emigration was over 10,000.
[p]
If there were an out-of-state dependence measure, NH & DE would top the list, since many of their citizens work out of state. The feds might stick their nose into that. Projected No of jobs isn't critical, since an indepedent people should be able to create their own jobs. Maine has the best prospects of supporting a broad base of self-employed people in the northeast.
[p]
Weighting each factor equally is valid when you're making a subjective judgement on which state you'll vote for, esp. since Amanda included the ratings from subjectively complied 'Economic Freedom' & 'Livability' Indexes, which are meaningless per se. There are more concrete measure for each one, such as the % of self-employed in a state, and the % of children in foster care.
I agree that when deciding what states to put on the ballot, one should use objective criteria, and that they should not be weighted equally. For that reason the Livability & Economic Freedom Indexes should go, and the Research Committee should not be trying to cut down the No of candidate states to some 'magic number' for each coast.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2002, 11:24:02 am by mAximo »
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JasonPSorens

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Re:Maine Report
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2002, 11:50:27 am »

I think the criterion of federal dependence is very clear, and so is its interpretation.  States that receive more in federal expenditures than they pay in federal taxes are less likely to seek fiscal autonomy from the federal government.  It will be harder for them to reject road funds, to support Social Security privatization, to favor reductions in federal employment, to support the principle that each state should pay its own way.

You might argue that for some states, the accounting of the federal dependence variable is slightly skewed because it doesn't take into account special federal regulations that hurt the state.  Fair enough, but then what you're saying is that the federal dependence variable in conjunction with an understanding of unique federal regulations for each state yields a complete understanding of the state's economic incentives for seeking autonomy.  The study of federal regulations is something that the state reports have focused on, esp. the Alaska report.  Alaska is the only state that federal regs really hurt; you might argue that Western states also have some non-fiscal grievances relating to water rights and wilderness regs.  But Maine doesn't seem to have any compensating grievance of that nature to counterweigh its fiscal dependence on the fedgov.
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

di540

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Re:Maine Report
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2002, 12:34:40 pm »

Quote
But Maine doesn't seem to have any compensating grievance of that nature to counterweigh its fiscal dependence on the fedgov.

[p]
They do in the area of fisheries. And they might have objections to Softwood Lumber Agreement, on the grounds that the feds are only looking after the species of interest to western states.

Federal dependence is higher, as that's to be expected given a very long border and coastline.  I disagree that a $ valuation of that is the clearest measure, rather than measuring the federal % of employees (who'd also tend not be FSP-friendly voters).
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JasonPSorens

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Re:Maine Report
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2002, 12:39:22 pm »


I disagree that a $ valuation of that is the clearest measure, rather than measuring the federal % of employees (who'd also tend not be FSP-friendly voters).



By that measure Maine is better than most Western states but still worse than NH, VT, and DE.
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"Educate your children, educate yourselves, in the love for the freedom of others, for only in this way will your own freedom not be a gratuitous gift from fate. You will be aware of its worth and will have the courage to defend it." --Joaquim Nabuco (1883), Abolitionism

wilaygarn

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Re:Maine Report
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2002, 12:44:13 am »

I have a friend who works for NOAA and I talked to him about a week ago. He said he had been up north, and I think it was Maine and he said that the Feds are VERY unpopular up there.  The watermen, etc are chafing under the federal yoke, which might be good for us.
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percy, aka tntsmum

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Re:Maine Report
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2002, 05:42:51 am »


I have a friend who works for NOAA and I talked to him about a week ago. He said he had been up north, and I think it was Maine and he said that the Feds are VERY unpopular up there.  The watermen, etc are chafing under the federal yoke, which might be good for us.
Yes I remember seeing this on the national news more than once. I know that folks in the Northern half are very independent rogue types from spending quite a bit of time up there. Lets just say some of them are pretty "wild & wooly". The Southern half has been "civilized" but the Northern  folks are VERY independent in nature, very rustic. I remember it wasn't that long ago that a town in Maine made the news for being the last place in the nation for still having the old style rotary,... (or was it crank?)  telephone system.
But I digress...
Anyway, yes I'm sure it was Maine that your friend was talking about re the fishing industry wanting to shed themselves of the feds.
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stpeter

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Re:Maine Report
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2002, 09:30:00 pm »

Since I'm from Maine (now living in Colorado), I think I can speak about the state with a fair bit of knowledge. Much as I like my home state, and much as I think it retains some of its feeling as the original (northern) frontier, I don't think it is the best candidate for a freestate. The political culture there is centrist more than anything else (longtime Republican senator William Cohen was Defense Secretary under Clinton, and another recent senator was big-government fan George Mitchell). The people, while often independent in a crusty New England fashion, are not particularly vigilant about their liberties (unlike the folks in neighboring NH). Taxes are high, economic freedom is low, government is fairly big as a percentage of the economy, and the job outlook is always pretty dismal (why do you think I moved out of state in the first place?). People there are also not welcoming of outsiders (referred to as "folks from away"), and the old saw is that you're not considered a Mainer unless your family has been there for three generations (doesn't bode well for influencing local politics). The population is at the high end of the scale for our needs and since the political culture is not particularly freedom-loving, I think we'd need way more than 20,000 people to move things in a freedom direction. The low federal land ownership score is nice, as are the long coastline and border with Canada, but not enough to sway me. The only factor that is truly attractive is the location, since Maine borders on only one other state (NH) and is at the end of line geographically, thus potentially "removable" if necessary. However, Alaska is much stronger on that count and its voting population is less than half that of Maine. Indeed, we could probably eliminate Maine on voting population alone, since it is the worst of any remaining state on that score. So my verdict even as a native Mainer is that we would do better to seek elsewhere (Alaska being my current favorite). /stpeter
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wilaygarn

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Re:Maine Report
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2002, 02:40:15 pm »

I don't know if this is the place to post this, but I heard on Neal Boortz' radio program Thursday or Friday tha Maine is on their way to setting up a socialised medicine system.
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Zxcv

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Re:Maine Report
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2002, 11:29:37 pm »

From the report:
Quote
I did not add voter population or % of population voters because I strongly disagree that this is a relevant factor.
This statement seriously detracts from the credibility of the report. Most folks think these criteria are among the most important; Amanda should include them in the report even if she disagrees (it doesn't hurt for her to explain her reservations about them).

As Jason noted, weighing the criteria she used equally also is not a good idea. Yes they are subjective, but one could make a conservative guess, moving somewhat away from equality.

Quote
The low federal land ownership score is nice,

The more I think about this, the more I must dispute it.

I think we need a powerful federal irritant in our chosen state, something that will serve to keep the population riled up against the feds. That is what we must build on to push off federal dependence and push toward restoration of the Constitution. In the west it is the federal lands and environmental regulations and the declaration of federal monuments and parks for every damn silly thing (federal grasslands  ::)  ). Perhaps in Maine it is the fisheries. I don't know if every state has this federal irritant, but I'm pretty sure we need it.

I'm wondering, have there been in Maine any protests and civil disobedience along the lines of what is happening in the Klamath basin and that road closure down in Nevada? Such would be a good measure of the strength of that irritation.
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