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Author Topic: Delaware  (Read 38746 times)

marciesmom

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Re:Delaware Report
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2002, 02:25:59 pm »

Speaking as a "westie", I have to admit that Eddie's right.  The talk of wide open spaces is only a catchphrase for what I believe is a larger problem.   Look at the map:  the states in consideration on the east coast are surrounded by liberalism.  The exception is the NH border with Maine.  (Some would say Vermont is conservative enough to allow a free state next door;  I'm not so sure.)  I'm sure some will think I'm flaming here, but I don't want to move into liberalism's back yard.  If I can get my hubby to sign up, I plan to opt out of the east coast states for just that reason.  (Possible exception would be Maine, since it's more geographically excluded, though I'm sure the hoity-toities who have summer places in Kennebunkport and such like would not be thrilled with the idea of a free state, since they all know so much more about life in general than we silly conservative libertarian types.)
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Charley

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Re:Delaware Report
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2002, 03:54:02 pm »

Have you considered the possibility that there could be a lot of people who happen to live in the 'liberal' states surrounding a free state who would leap at the chance of migrating to said free state?  
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Re:Delaware Report
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2002, 04:41:45 pm »


So please please West coast people don't give us the "wide open spaces" crap because you can have that in New Hampshire and to a lesser extent Delaware.  This is beside the fact that this is a totally subjective, superficial, illogical criteria for this project.  So make some argument about the native voting population, or for the water resources after some catyclism but stop with the "wide open spaces" argument because it is just as valid for the east coast states as it is for the West coast ones.


I have to argue that "wide open spaces" is a completely valid, if vaguely stated, concern. Density is important, especially to anyone looking at homesteading, or who need a sizeable plot for other reasons. I still have to compare real numbers to see the prices of land in the individual states, but my initial instinct is that more available land=lower prices. My costs of moving are going to weigh heavily in my state selection, as too high of a "buy-in" will postpone me greatly, if not indefinitely.

I'm not saying the eastern states don't offer any "wide open spaces," just defending the search for them. ;)
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Daniel Vaughn

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Re:Delaware Report
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2002, 04:50:01 pm »

Well after I made that last post I figured it was time I invested in some good maps of the entire country.  You know those DeLorme maps they sell where the state is cut up into 100 or so huge detailed pages?  Well I picked up one of those, except it’s on 5 cds and covers the entire country.  

Yes it does appear as if Delaware has some rural sections, especially around Laurel and Seaford.  Personally I love the city, people, modern conveniences, parties, and in particular jobs.  However as a survivalist (of sorts) I can understand the desire for wide open spaces.  At least in my case, I’d say 50% of this desire is to be free.  When I’m up at my little camp (which is about as isolated as you can get, and its in Florida with 17,000,000 people) I feel truly free, I don’t have to worry about permits, cutting down (or growing) the wrong weeds, burn permits, caring my guns openly, or anything else.  But what I think everyone has to realize is that all these freedoms we go out into the middle of nowhere to half way attain, we could have in our everyday lives if we select a state we could work with.  Basically as you said Eddie wide open spaces are a “totally subjective, superficial, illogical criteria”.  That might be a little harsh, since people want to be happy with where they live, and city vs. country living is a very important criteria for many people.  Yet we have to remember even small states like Delaware, are still large tracts of land, and vary greatly from one end to the other.

Charley:  While that’s very possible, they’ll have to be some very determined people.  Not many in this country care about freedom strongly enough to leave their jobs, sell their house, say goodbye to their friends, and face potential ridicule, just to be free.  And if they did, it seems like if you were willing to do the aforementioned, it wouldn’t matter if you moved to New Hampshire (or another new England state) or a western one, you would still have to up root.
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Wild Pegasus

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Re:Delaware Report
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2002, 03:56:41 pm »

Hello.  I was born in Salem, NJ, about 10 miles from Delaware.  I lived in Delaware between the ages of 2 and 10.  I then moved to Pennsville, NJ, which is the first town in New Jersey across the river from Delaware on the Delaware Memorial Bridge.  My father still lives in Delaware.  I feel sort of qualified to talk about Delaware.

Delaware has three main areas:

1. New Castle County/Wilmington - Wilmington is far and away the seat of population in Delaware as someone else has mentioned.  The rest of New Castle County functions very much as a part of the Megapolis that encompasses Boston to DC.  Newark, New Castle, Elsmere, Christiana, etc. are all developed and form a combination of Wilmington suburb and simple general development.

2. Delaware Shore - Although it gets little press, Delaware has several miles of absolutely gorgeous beaches along the Atlantic Ocean.  The development is pretty much like you would expect at an East Coast shore.  If you've been to the Maryland, Virginia, or Jersey Shore, the same pretty much holds true for the Delaware Shore.  I'm extremely partial to Dewey Beach, but it caters to attractive, young, heterosexual singles in their early 20's.  Rehoboth Beach a little further north caters both to teens and homosexuals.  Lewes is a calmer (read: more boring) area along the bay.  Although relatively low key by Jersey or Maryland standards, the Delaware shore is starting to build up, as people are looking for a retirement near a shore but can't afford Florida, or are looking for shore real estate but can't afford the already-developed Jersey or Maryland shores(or worse, the Hamptons).

3. Kent/Sussex Counties - Although the Delaware Shore is entirely compassed in Sussex County (the southernmost of the three), Sussex County is the widest of the three.  Not far off the Shore, Delaware turns into a relatively open and rural area.  There are a number of small towns and cities in this two-county area - Bear, Smyrna, Georgetown, even the capital Dover is pretty small (<100,000 people).  If you're looking for a small town or even a rural feel, southwest Delaware definitely has that flavor.  Kent County is a little more developed with Dover and Bear but still has a lot of elbow room.  

Delaware does not have a particular affinity for liberty, at least, not particular in comparison to most of the country.  The more rural and small-town southern areas (areas #2 and #3) are likely conservative.  The more citied North is probably fairly liberal.  The seat of power in Delaware is the monied corporations in Wilmington.  Corporations are absolutely no friend of liberty, as they dump tons of money into state-wide and national races in return for political favors.  The strong banking industry in Wilmington is married to state politics, and as the banking industry country-wide depends on the Federal Reserve banking cartel, the industry is married to federal power as well.  Contrast that with a state like New Hampshire, where there is a strong liberty component, less ensconced corruption, and less state-business collusion.

I should have no say, since I am not signed up and probably will not ever do so, but I would suggest that Delaware's attractive number of jobs and low population is sadly balanced by the money politics of the state.  Nevertheless, I love Delaware - the first state I remember - and its beaches.

As to the person who asked about the more rural areas having a Southern feel, the answer is no, not to someone with Eastern Shore blood, at least.  It will seem like the South in comparison to Boston or Concord, but it is not particularly Southern in its tastes.

- Josh
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Otosan

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Re:Delaware Report
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2002, 05:18:19 pm »

A news article I came across about Delaware!

Civil libertarians protest anti-drug tactics
----------
USA Today
In Wilmington, Delaware, police routinely round up
everybody in an area of town, photograph them, get their
names and other details, and then put the information in
a database to use in future investigations. The rough
tactics have drawn strong criticism. (09/05/02)
http://www.free-market.net/rd/304438371.html
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Charley

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Re:Delaware Report
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2002, 07:05:53 pm »

Quote
Charley:  While that’s very possible, they’ll have to be some very determined people.  Not many in this country care about freedom strongly enough to leave their jobs, sell their house, say goodbye to their friends, and face potential ridicule, just to be free.  And if they did, it seems like if you were willing to do the aforementioned, it wouldn’t matter if you moved to New Hampshire (or another new England state) or a western one, you would still have to up root.

I was thinking abt Delaware when I wrote that.  People in  Pa, NJ, Del &  Md commute between states all the time. So moving to Del would not be a hardship for me or for a lot of other people who liove & work in this area.  I'm sure that there are people in Mass, NH, Vt & Maine who do the same sort of shuffle every day.
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JasonPSorens

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Re:Delaware Report
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2002, 07:44:47 pm »

Hm, interestingly, we do have a campaign finance variable, and Delaware has cheaper federal elections than South Dakota, Montana, and Maine, and not much more expensive than New Hampshire.  Of course, we don't have comparative data on state elections.
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Eddie_Bradford

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Re:Delaware Report
« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2002, 10:42:46 am »

On the question of
"Is Wilmington a threat?"

There was a total of 23,837 votes for Mayor in 2000.  So 11,919 votes would have made you Mayor in 2000.

To become a district City Council member you need only around 1,800 votes to win.  Theoretically we could take over the whole council with only our people.  This being said it's important to note that the Mayor and 12 of the 13 Councilmembers are Democrats!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry for sounding harsh earlier I must have been having a bad day or something  :) as for wide open space I know that this is really important to some people but I just wanted to make sure that they could have this on the East coast and that I personally didn't assign much value to it because I don't think it is a criteria the furthers our goals.  Now if you want to argue that voting tendencies tend to be anti-freedom in big cities that's a point and it may be true but then we are argueing voting tendency which is another important but different criteria.
-Eddie
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Mark Alexander

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Re:Delaware Report
« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2002, 08:15:41 pm »


... as for wide open space I know that this is really important to some people but I just wanted to make sure that they could have this on the East coast and that I personally didn't assign much value to it because I don't think it is a criteria the furthers our goals.


True, wide open space is probably not directly important to the FSP.

But here's one example about how it can be an important freedom issue for an individual: I like to play the piano, and sometimes get the desire to do so late at night.  I've only lived in one place where I could do that: a temporary rental house on 5 acres of land where I couldn't see or hear the neighbors.  Everywhere else I've lived, the neighbors were a few feet away and would not appreciate hearing Chopin while they're trying to sleep.  So I'm definitely attracted to states where large parcels of land are more readily available and relatively inexpensive.
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real_enchilada

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Re:Delaware or Maryland
« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2002, 09:25:42 pm »

I live in Maryland now - we call it the PRM - People's Republic of Maryland.  It is definitely not the place for the free state.  Not only is the population too high as has been pointed out, it is very socialist.  The problem is, the socialist economy here works because of all of the money (yours) pumped into federal government spending in the area.  This makes people believe in it, which is of course no good for the free state.

Once you get away from DC/Baltimore, however, there are some rural areas with freedom-loving people.  It is not uncommon for people to live in PA or VA and work in Maryland because they don't want to live in the PRM (usually for liberty reasons)

Several people I know have gone to Delaware to buy high-dollar items such as engagement rings to avoid the MD state tax.  This is of course a big help to the Delaware economy. ;)

I think another factor in Delaware's favor is that it would be possible to leech a lot of the freedom-loving people from the Maryland area (including yours truly perhaps :') as we get more and more fed up with the PRM.
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freedomroad

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Re:Delaware Report
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2002, 03:03:07 pm »

On the question of
"Is Wilmington a threat?"

There was a total of 23,837 votes for Mayor in 2000.  So 11,919 votes would have made you Mayor in 2000.

To become a district City Council member you need only around 1,800 votes to win.  Theoretically we could take over the whole council with only our people.  This being said it's important to note that the Mayor and 12 of the 13 Councilmembers are Democrats!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


DE might currently have low votes but it has the possibility to have a much higher turn out and is growing rapidly.  Also, knowing what I know about big cities Wilmington is most likely expensive to live in and very restrictive with its laws.  Will I be able to carry my gun in the city stores?  DE is a Democratic state.  The state is quitely becoming like almost all Eastern states, Democratic.
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MLiq

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The case for Delaware-NH
« Reply #27 on: December 30, 2002, 07:56:52 am »

I really firmly believe that NH and Delaware are the only viable candidates for FSP.  The fact of the matter is that the majority of Americans live in urban areas, and therefore a large percentage of FSPers probably do.  Delaware is easily commutable to Philly, and NH to Boston, but both of these states also have remote areas with cheap real estate.  These are the best comprimises for the urban-rural divide.  An earlier post tried to find a compromise state by excluding states with larger than 300K MSAs, but this seems stupid to me.  States are big places.  You can live in a very rural and affordable area in the same state as a big city.  We do not need a land area the size of a European nation for all 20,000 of us, and we do not need to be isolated from the rest of America, we need to be right in the heart of America to show them how normal we are.

I understand that there is also an east-west divide but the recent poll seems to indicate that this isn't so important.  I believe the urban-rural issue will be much bigger.  While I am willing to move far away, I'm not willing to move far away from all civilization and most good job prospects.  

Also, I believe that many FSPers are well-educated, and as such will be less inclined to move to states with worse job opportunities.  NH & DE by far have more varied and higher numbers of job opportunities than any of the other states.  

Personally I believe DE is the best because: it is the most easily commutable to a major city (Philly).  It is a cheaper place to live than NH.  It has a very large shoreline.  And mostly, because it has a nice climate.  Many people are not willing to live in an environment as hostile as Alaska or the Dakotas, myself included.  Idaho and NH-Vermont-Maine are not as bad but still get pretty darn cold.  DE has a nice taste of all 4 seasons without being too extreme.

I understand the arguments for Montana & the Dakotas and the rest of the barren wasteland states.  Yes they might be easier to take over and more receptive to us.  But, they also might not be easier because I believe the 2 most important factors after freedom in choosing a place to live for everyone in the world are: weather & urban/rural (includes job potential).  Choosing to ignore these highly important aspects of life will only break the project apart.  No one likes to compromise, and Delaware obviously isn't an untouched land like the west.  It does not appeal to the pioneer spirit some of us seem to possess.

But this is the 21st century, and most of us don't have this pioneering attitude, I want to be able to have my high speed internet and the ability to drive to a big city for fun and the ability to not have to dig out a few feet of snow everytime I want to go somewhere.  Perhaps this is an old/young divide more than east/west, I don't know.  Those of us who do not already have wives and families are less interested in being isolated in the wilderness.   The fact is that no matter where we go we will have to deal with many non libertarian people.  Isolating ourselves will not prove as much an example to the rest of the nation.  They will be much more likely to send in the Feds the minute we legalize anything if we are all living together in the middle of nowhere with very few non-FSPers around.  No one cares what happens in Montana as long as they don't try to take over the rest of the country.  Delaware is another story.  I think its proximity to DC and most of the major cities is a huge opportunity for everyone outside to see what a free state is like.  

Additionally, we should consider that whichever state we choose will have its economy greatly enhanced by residents of other states who come in to enjoy our freedoms (drugs, fireworks, guns, casinos, prostitutes).  DE and NH both are located within driving distance of probably more than 33% of the US population, though I'm not sure of the exact number, I believe it might even be larger, and a huge portion of the country's wealth is there also.  The other states are only within easy driving distance of other empty states, with the exception of Wyoming which still is not that close to Denver.  

The point is that FSP will be a big travel destination.  If its on the eastern seaboard people will come and go.  if its in a far away state people will come for extended stays and I would be afraid it would turn into something like Nevada, where all the population huddles around a disgusting tourist city because that is where the jobs are.  Delaware is conveniently situated so that people all pass through the northern tip and have no reason to go to the majority of the state.  The tourist market could be up there and that leaves lots and lots of seaboard and nice areas that are already self-sustaining communities with many large corporations and jobs around.  The western states are mostly farm-based economies and other physical labor.  This does not appeal to most of us I'd imagine.

Those of us who are just starting out our careers are not willing to live in the middle of nowhere.  Its not a question of loving freedom enough.  I am not willing to be more than 4 hours from a major city and I'd really prefer to be closer.  I think many people will share my views.  There are many jobs & lifestyles one cannot have in Idaho or Alaska.  Weather is not as important as this concern.  

While there are many important aspects of urban life that simply CANNOT exist in any of the western states, I fail to see what aspects of rural life one could not do equally well in Delaware or NH.  Sure you might have to settle for 10 acres instead of 1000 but isn't THAT a small price to pay for freedom?  
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Robert H.

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Re:The case for Delaware-NH
« Reply #28 on: December 30, 2002, 08:46:38 am »

But this is the 21st century, and most of us don't have this pioneering attitude, I want to be able to have my high speed internet and the ability to drive to a big city for fun and the ability to not have to dig out a few feet of snow everytime I want to go somewhere...

Isolating ourselves will not prove as much an example to the rest of the nation.  They will be much more likely to send in the Feds the minute we legalize anything if we are all living together in the middle of nowhere with very few non-FSPers around.  No one cares what happens in Montana as long as they don't try to take over the rest of the country.  Delaware is another story.  I think its proximity to DC and most of the major cities is a huge opportunity for everyone outside to see what a free state is like.  

Those of us who are just starting out our careers are not willing to live in the middle of nowhere.  Its not a question of loving freedom enough.  I am not willing to be more than 4 hours from a major city and I'd really prefer to be closer.  I think many people will share my views.  There are many jobs & lifestyles one cannot have in Idaho or Alaska.  Weather is not as important as this concern...

The above is a restatement of a basic conceptual division that is deeply engrained in the mindset of the members and friends of this organization, and is not simply going to go away in a blaze of solidarity following the state vote.

This division will manifest itself again and again when it comes to FSP members choosing where they will live and where they will be active, and each side will accuse the other of not having the proper focus for our efforts to succeed.  And if you argue that people are just going to lay down their differences on these issues for the all-important goal of achieving liberty, I urge you to take a look at the discussions on this forum and ask yourself if you honestly believe that.  The discussions that have taken place here have gotten downright hostile on the matter, and we are only at the theoretical stage of these events.  Can we honestly believe that it will all simply vanish into thin air once it comes to actually doing something?  Such an assumption denies basic human nature.

This has got to be addressed in some meaningful way.  A compromise of some sort might address it, but it seems like hardly anyone is interested in the subject.

And that fact alone testifies to the strength of this division.

MLiq

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Re:The case for Delaware-NH
« Reply #29 on: December 30, 2002, 09:42:36 am »

You are right on this but it seems to me that the compromise the urbanites would be making by moving to Wyoming is vastly different and greater in magnitude than that which a rural Wyoming guy makes by becoming a rural Delaware or NH guy.  No one wants to compromise but I think since this is the major division, we have to choose a state that offers both rural and urban, or proximity to urban, life.  I don't see how this is a big compromise for the rural people at all except that they just want it their way.   There may be people that they think the Western states are better for any number of reasons, but if we are determined to hold this group together, none of that matters, the Western states should have been ruled out from the beginning because of their distance from a major job market.  It is unrealistic to expect 20,000 people to move to the middle of nowhere for this cause.  Actually, maybe it isn't unrealistic, but we would get there a lot faster if the urbanites and ruralites could compromise on one state, and the East coast states are the only ones that are possible, period.  

If one of them wants to set me straight on this I'd love to hear it.  Fortunately, 75% of the US population chooses to live in cities so based on that, if a split did occur, the urbanites would be better off.  
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