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Author Topic: The Mormon fact: ID & WY - summing it up  (Read 14497 times)

freedomroad

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The Mormon fact: ID & WY - summing it up
« on: June 28, 2003, 01:27:56 pm »

There is a new article about the Mormon factor and how it relates to Idaho and Wyoming.
http://members.aol.com/wyomingsuccess/lds.html

Here is the first part of it.

"Will Later-Day Saints help or hurt the FSP and how does this relate to Idaho and Wyoming?  

Many FSP members and potential members have expressed concern that a large population of Mormons is incompatible with liberty.  They tend to point to Utah as an example.  In fact, many Americans consider Utah to be a theocracy (this is up for debate).  Even some of our FSP members from Utah and Idaho have expressed their concerns about the FSP future prospects in a state like Idaho, which is heavily Mormon.  Some of the FSP's LDS members (and other) have countered this argument with saying that LDS are more libertarian than the typical big city socialist or suburban soccer mom.  They also counter with arguments that most LDS are pro-gun freedom and anti-United Nations.

I have to admit; I am not a Later-Day Saint.  However, I have known many LDS and been good friends with a few LDS. Also, I have attended ten hours of LDS schooling.  I will never forget one LDS I know.  I met him in Army Basic Training.  He was not only the nicest person I met there, but also the most able.  He was almost a perfect solider and it seemed like he excelled at everything.  He came to the Army after finishing a Mission trip to Africa.  All of the LDS that I have met seem just like average people with one exception.  None of them ever had a beer, smoked, did drugs, or even had coffee.  I never thought to ask them if all of those vices (in their minds) should be completely illegal or completely unregulated, though.  While I am not qualified to talk about the complete history of the LDS Church and all of the LDS beliefs, I feel that I am qualified enough to write the article.  

First off, let's establish which states have Later-Day Saints.  Of course, LDS are found on all ten state but they are most prevalent in Idaho and Wyoming.  Estimates for Idaho show that around 25% of Idaho's population or 340,000 people are LDS.  Estimates for Wyoming show around 7% of the population or 35,000 people to be LDS.  Montana is the only other FSP candidate state with a noticeable LDS population.  Idaho's LDS tend to live (and make up about 60% of the population) in the entire southeast part of the state.  Wyoming's LDS tend to be centered in Uinta (where the main city is Evanston), Lincoln, and Sublette counties (the ones near Utah and Idaho).  

 
(interactive table)
The Case that Later-Day Saints are pro-freedom
The Case that Later-Day Saints NOT are pro-freedom
Conclusion: Which state is best?


Read more at, http://members.aol.com/wyomingsuccess/lds.html

Varrin, Kelton, Zion, and everyone else, I hope the sheds new light on the debate.
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freedomroad

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Re:The Mormon fact: ID & WY - summing it up
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2003, 01:30:10 pm »

Here are a few words from the first section.

"The Case that Later-Day Saints are pro-freedom:

Since the very beginnings of the Later-Day Saints Church, the United States government has persecuted and tortured LDS.  In fact, the FSP did their own FSP-like movement because of this.  They moved from the East, through St. Louis, and into present day Utah.  Back then, it was called Mexico.  That is right, the LDS were treated so bad by the US government they decided their only option was to leave the US.  This is similar to why many of the Puritans left Europe and traveled to America.  

Later-Day Saint Values that are pro-freedom:

    1. Hard work (enough said)

    2. Take care of family (this would be a must in a libertarian society)

    3. Give money to the church and other charities (very libertarian things to do)

    4. Go on missions where the mean goal is to preach the message and convert people (this is very similar to political activism)

    5. Reject government welfare

    6. Voluntary Association (this is a libertarian belief but it means that the LDS actively discriminate in many aspects of life)

    7. Self-sufficient and basic survivalism (all LDS tell a long supply of food in storage)

    8. Support the United States Constitution (many libertarian find the US Constitution to be very important)

    9. Just like government schools were forced on the South, they were also forced on Utah. Recently,  the Church has urged some members to explore alternatives to public education whenever possible.
    10. Utah cast the deciding vote repealing Prohibition (although this could also be argued as a negative factor because it took Utah so long to come to this rather obvious conclusion.

   11.  Utah was the second state to elect a Jewish governor.

   12. Even though the LDS Church is officially against polygamy, many Mormons still believe in the practice.  They know that if the FSP succeeds, than polygamy might come back.  This could happen because many in the FSP project want to separate marriage and the government."

 
Read more about how Mormons are pro-freedom,
http://members.aol.com/wyomingsuccess/lds.html#1

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freedomroad

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Re:The Mormon fact: ID & WY - summing it up
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2003, 01:31:55 pm »

Here is the first part of the 2nd section.

"The Case that Later-Day Saints are NOT pro-freedom:

The LDS Church has influenced the Utah state and local governments to a great degree.  Many libertarians believe that a church, especially a very large church, should not use the government to (literally) control many of the actions of the minority (the non-church members).  Some claim that Republicanism has been thrown out the window in Utah and parts of Idaho and the LDS Church is now in control of a theocracy.  They claim that if you are not Mormon you will not get a good job.  My friend, a LDS, said that in parts of Utah, by just smoking you are not able to get many jobs.  He also said that some Mormons will not even talk with you if you smoke.

 

There were lots of complaints during the Winter Olympics in Salt Lake City that the city was boring and that people could not buy liquor.  People complained that they had to drive all the way to Evanston, Wyoming to have a good time (and drink).  This perpetuated the worldwide stereotype that Mormons always try to tell other people what to do.  I'll let you decide this question for yourself.  Below are a few quotes and a couple of letters.  Clearly, all of this could not just be made up.

Here is a quote from ZionCurtian, a FSP member from Utah, "...Let us take a look at the Mormon culture that I live in. Almost everything closed on Sunday some most not by choice but because they do not want to offend the church. Ever hear of the Mormon Plaza, where the church fought to deny free speech. No cruising downtown after dark if they catch you going down the street more than twice you will be cited. No swimming pools open on Sunday, No liquor store open, No car dealerships open. I could go on and on..."

Here is another quote from ZionCurtain ,"Exitus, I am not anti-LDS just anti-LDS and politics. The Theocracy that exists in Utah is what we want to avoid. The church mandating what can and can't go on is totally irresponsible. It is not Libertarian at all. Maybe I am wrong.

As for the Mormon Plaza thing you are way off base, should check your facts first. They signed an easement as a condition of purchase, which allowed permanent access to everyone. When they found out they could not control 1st Amendment activities there then all hell broke loose. They lost. I agree they should be able to control what happens on there own property, but you have to wonder if there initial intentions were less than honorable. "

Here is another quote from Larry Fullmer, "I've lived in the nest nearly my whole 59 years. I was born and grew-up in Sugar City, Idaho (600 people at the time). It was 99.999% pure, and I was a pure as they come. The **big** problem in town was that it had a coffee shop for tourists. Believe me, if folks could have, they'd have shut it down!!! Believe me!!!”"

Read more about how Mormons are anti-freedom,
http://members.aol.com/wyomingsuccess/lds.html#2
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freedomroad

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Re:The Mormon fact: ID & WY - summing it up
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2003, 01:34:01 pm »

Here is the first part of the reports conclusion.

"Conclusion:

The evidence is strong on both sides of the argument.  However, even if 70% of Mormons are against 70% of the FSP’s goals, that does not mean we cannot partner with Mormons on certain issues.  We can partner with all groups and all individuals that want the slightest amount of more freedom.  I truly do believe that some Mormons are prejudges of non-Mormons.  Mormons treat fellow Mormons better than they treat others.  While I am completely against the discrimination a few Mormons show to others, I thing they have a Constitutional right to associate freely.  This is the libertarian way.  As libertarians, we should support the rights of Mormons to freely associate, not show hostility because of it.  Of course, some Mormons make the grievous error and use the government to control other people’s lives.  This is outrageous and there is no forgiving this.  However, this is the way the world works.  Even after we move to the selected candidate state, changing this will be a very slow process.  I think onyx_goddness sums it up well with this quote.

"I lived in Utah for probably around 5 years total on and off, and my experiences there (where I first heard about libertarianism by the way...) and later thought have led me to believe that LDS people are no different than the rest of the country when it comes to using the law to shape your community. We're a law-passing country. This is a bad thing. We laugh that selling coffee is being attacked in Utah, but at the same time there's been actual attempts (unrelated to Utah or LDS) to ban the selling of certain Oreo Cookies to minors. Libertarians are the only ones who really "get it" that there's a better way. It's a matter of educating people. My first conversation about non-smoking restaurant laws opened my eyes that in general most people don't think about laws the way libertarians do. People living in Utah are no different than the rest of the US in this respect. And, as far as being treated differently goes - that's life. I was raised in Hawaii and all my life I was referred to with racial slurs - including daily in my professional career. So, LDS kids tease non-LDS kids. I was called names because I had buck teeth. Kids don't need a reason to tease, because they'll invent one.

So, summing up and recapping:

LDS are not unusual in their use of the law to shape their environment.
Utah is not unusual in that some people feel alienated and different.
Libertarians can change the way people see things."

Honestly, folks, even after considering all of the evidence, I am not sure if Mormons are a positive or negative to the FSP. Maybe they are both a positive and a negative.

Back to Idaho and Wyoming, though.  Let’s say that Mormons are positive for the FSP.  Which state is better, than, Idaho or Wyoming?  Some people might say that Idaho is better because 25% of its population is LDS.  On the surface, that makes sense.

Wyoming’s largest Mormon controlled city is only 1 hour 20 min. from Utah’s second largest city (Ogden) and 1 hour 30 min. from Utah’s largest city (Salt Lake City).  Also of note, two of Idaho’s largest Mormon controlled cities are very close to Wyoming.  On the other hand, Idaho’s three largest Mormon controlled cites range from 2 hours 45 min. to 3 hours 45 min.  Neither the Wyoming city, nor the Idaho cities are very large.  However, that is not of much importance since almost none of the cities in Utah are very large.  

I predict, if Mormons fall in love with the FSP and decide to support it, many of the Mormons from Utah (and even some of the ones from Idaho) will move to Evanston, WY (it is only 1 hour 30 min. or less away)."

Read more of the conclusion,
http://members.aol.com/wyomingsuccess/lds.html#3  

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varrin

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Re:The Mormon fact: ID & WY - summing it up
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2003, 04:51:05 pm »

The LDS Church has influenced the Utah state and local governments to a great degree.

I'm still waiting for your evidence.  Here's what I got instead:

Quote
Some claim that ...

Doesn't sound like fact to me.

Quote
They claim that if you are not Mormon you will not get a good job.  My friend, a LDS, said that in parts of Utah, by just smoking you are not able to get many jobs.  He also said that some Mormons will not even talk with you if you smoke.

"They claim" doesn't sound like fact.  Furthermore, I don't see *any* element of coersion in this statement.  Should we force Mormons to talk to smokers?  Should we force employers to give jobs to non-Mormons?
 
Quote
There were lots of complaints during the Winter Olympics in Salt Lake City that the city was boring and that people could not buy liquor.  

You have repeatedly brought this up, however, I still don't know if Utah has dry areas and/or if the Mormons had a direct impact on that legislation.  Help me out here.  Being boring doesn't constitute coercive behavior.

Quote
This perpetuated the worldwide stereotype that Mormons always try to tell other people what to do.  

Are you trying to tell Mormons what to do?

Quote
Here is a quote from ZionCurtian, a FSP member from Utah, "...Let us take a look at the Mormon culture that I live in. Almost everything closed on Sunday some most not by choice but because they do not want to offend the church.

Now you're quoting someone else describing libertarian behavior and characterizing it otherwise.

Quote
The church mandating what can and can't go on is totally irresponsible. It is not Libertarian at all.

I'm ready to listen anytime to specific examples of the church influencing government regulation over behavior.  Add it all up and let's compare it to the business community, the homosexuals, the farmers, etc. etc...

Quote
The **big** problem in town was that it had a coffee shop for tourists. Believe me, if folks could have, they'd have shut it down!!! Believe me!!!”"

So they didn't shut it down.  There *is* a coffee shop.  Amazing...

Listen, I'm not trying to be mean or argumentative.  I'm just trying to drive home this point: nowhere here has there been a description of any specific law that Mormons or the Mormon church used government to pass.  Furthermore, nowhere here has there been a basic comparison of the 'evils' of Mormons to the 'evils' of any other group for the purpose of determining the 'least bad' alternative.

When you get serious about the negative side of the Mormon issue, I *will* listen.  Until then, I don't see how using that as a thorn in the side of Idaho is all that relavent.

V-

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ZionCurtain

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Re:The Mormon fact: ID & WY - summing it up
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2003, 05:07:38 pm »

varrin, I disagree you are trying to be very argumentative. You ever lived in Utah or experienced it's politics? Of course not. You just want to disclaim any notion that Idaho has a negative check against it. You can research the facts just as well as anyone else with a computer can. If you want to call me a liar then that is your own problem. Try a google search if you want to know the facts, if not then your own ignorance is the issue.
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varrin

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Re:The Mormon fact: ID & WY - summing it up
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2003, 05:23:58 pm »

If you want to call me a liar then that is your own problem.

I didn't, nor do I intend to call you a liar.  You said things are closed on Sundays because people don't want to offend the church.  I asked what the problem with this was.  I *still* don't see what the problem with this is.

I also asked for someone to provide some evidence of the Mormon church causing coercive legislation to get passed in their own favor.  So far, right here on this forum, absolutely *ZERO* evidence of such a nature has been posted.  For cryin out loud I'm sure Kelton can help us out here.  I just want to know what the extent of the *real* problem is.  I could care less if Mormons encourage businesses to close, or boycott, or won't talk to people.  That's their liberty...

If you want to defend your position (either of you), *please do so*.  I'm simply leaving the ball in your court, since you (well, Keith really) brought it up in the first place...

V-

P.S.  Having reread my previous post (I was playing poker at the time) it does read somewhat argumentatively.  I'm not attacking you or Keith or anyone else for that matter.  I'm attacking the idea that this forum has been present with evidence that suggests the Mormon Church or its people habitually control politics in a manner that causes anti-libertarian legislation to be passed.  So far, I haven't seen it...

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joeythompson

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Re:The Mormon fact: ID & WY - summing it up
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2003, 06:00:24 pm »

A 2-second google search came up with these results.  Of course, I'm endorsing neither side - simply providing the information that was requested.  

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2001/0104.mencimer.html

http://www.sltrib.com/2002/jan/01172002/nation_w/168242.htm

http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/daily/politics/Contemporary_American_EOM.htm ;D
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Hank

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Re:The Mormon fact: ID & WY - summing it up
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2003, 07:37:46 pm »

The topmost reasons Varrin promotes Idaho is because it has
the largest city of all ten states (which he states here
Jobs: at largest airport (he is a commercial pilot) discussed here
it has warmest weather (second to Delaware) discussed here

Idaho's chances of being a Free State are way down there
unless you agree these three reasons will recruit several times as many activists for Idaho than for Wyoming or South Dakota or Vermont.

On a Delaware thread Varrin said:
Quote
If we go to Deleware, I'll probably be moving to Wilmington.  It's on the border with PA and I'd commute out of Philly.  I *like* living in suburban areas, so I'm sure Wilmington would be the obvious choice given the cirumstances.
And, as previously pointed out, DE is leagues ahead of ID in terms of population.

Are we betting on chances for a Free State succeeding
or living a comfy lifestyle?

Some of us would live in a 16x20 cabin in New England's north woods if we could gain freedom. Others demand high dollar jobs and big cities and warm weather regardless of whether a Free State could succeed.

According to the links above and the testimony of people who have lived and endured under Mormon rule
Idaho's chances for a free-thinking Free State (or at least a state friendly to free thinkers) are next to nil.
You may as well post signs on Idaho's borders that say no welcome to gays, lesbians, jews, atheists, deists, drinkers, smokers, or anyone who doesn't toe to the Mormon State Party line.

Oh sure, you could live there.
You just couldn't be a successful activist there
unless you were a dyed in the wool LDS member
(that certainly seems to be what the inside story is telling)
« Last Edit: June 28, 2003, 07:52:42 pm by Hank »
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phylinidaho

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Re:The Mormon fact: ID & WY - summing it up
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2003, 08:58:16 pm »


You may as well post signs on Idaho's borders that say no welcome to gays, lesbians, jews, atheists, deists, drinkers, smokers, or anyone who doesn't toe to the Mormon State Party line.
Are there two states named "Idaho"?  Your description  certainly doesn't sound like the Idaho in which I have lived for the last 20 years.

My personal favorite is Montana, but I don't like to see such a drastic misconception of my current state of residence.  Our unofficial motto is "Idaho is too Great for Hate"
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varrin

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Re:The Mormon fact: ID & WY - summing it up
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2003, 10:01:41 pm »

Bzzzzzt, Joey gets the prize.  Thanks for posting the links.  Though I only found a few truly objectionable things in those articles, there were some instances that I was, until now, unaware of.  That sounds a lot like what I might have suspected of a large powerful church full of members that might not fully understand liberty.

However, those Mormon related articles illustrate the less-than-libertarian state of Utah for what it is: not very libertarian compared to, say, Idaho or Wyoming.  So I suspect we would be wise not to locate the FSP in Utah.  Fortunately that's not under consideration so we don't need to discuss that any more.

I'd also like to point out that a frequent complaint about Idaho is the rapidly growing population.  My guess is that less than 25% of our 20,000 porcupines will be Mormon.  I'd also guess that less than 25% of the non-porcupine immigrants to Idaho would be Mormon.  Hence the politcal landscape in Idaho is not only be significantly less Mormon-dominated now (25% v.s. 70% in Utah), but should decline in its Mormon domination.  Consider, however, if we're successful in persuading the Idaho Mormons of the virtues of liberty what the effect might be on Utah.  (just a thought)

Now, on to Hank's post, since he said a couple things I want to comment on.

The topmost reasons Varrin promotes Idaho ...

Those reasons make Idaho an attractive place to live.  Couple that with a little more liberty, and I might be persuaded to move there *without* the FSP.  I can't tell you how many *more* people will be attracted to Idaho than Wyoming.  I'm just making a wild speculative guess that it'll be at least 2 proven activists (based on the level of proven activism in these forums, as pointed out by Joe, that might be several percentage points).  My ability to 'activate' in WY might be significantly hampered if I can't justify moving there at all.  But if the majority of the FSP members disagree, then my vote will be the minority and Idaho won't be chosen.  So, you see, that problem solves itself and I suspect you all will do just fine with only my out-of-state help (much like Joe's).

Quote
Idaho's chances of being a Free State are way down there
unless you agree these three reasons will recruit several times as many activists for Idaho than for Wyoming or South Dakota or Vermont.

I've addressed activist and population issues in a thread called Activist and Population Issues.  

Here's the thing.  If the project goes someplace I can live with, I won't wait for the 20,000th person to sign up.  However, I find it highly unlikely that all the other 19,998 would-be porcupines will do the same.  I'm not convinced we can get 20,000 people to go to Wyoming.  I think it's at least twice as likely, and maybe more, that we'll get to 20,000 people with Idaho, or even New Hampshire (yeah, that's a hunch).  If we lose half or more of the people because we never get there (i.e. the project *fails*), that could be catistrophic.

So when we evaluate chances for success, it might be wise to consider the chances of getting to 20,000.  Furthermore, there are several other factors that contribute to Idaho's chances for success.  To say that Idaho's chances are 'way down there' on my list isn't exactly a fair characterization.  In my estimation, this project is has a good chance to succeed in any of the low population states if we get to 20,000 people and actually move (the only one I'm remotely concerned about is Maine).  My biggest success or failure concern is failing to attract 20,000 people.  

This is pretty much mostly off topic now so I'll quit ;-)

V-

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Kelton Baker

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Re:The Mormon fact: ID & WY - summing it up
« Reply #11 on: June 29, 2003, 04:17:45 am »

A 2-second google search came up with these results.  Of course, I'm endorsing neither side - simply providing the information that was requested.  

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2001/0104.mencimer.html

http://www.sltrib.com/2002/jan/01172002/nation_w/168242.htm

http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/daily/politics/Contemporary_American_EOM.htm ;D

Thanks, Joey

I liked a statement that the SL Tribune article had, "Mormons understand they must define themselves to a skeptical world."  Ain't that the truth!  I'm feeling it, amazing how much time I have to spend counter-acting the distortions just to stay behind!  :-\

I read the articles and will do a quick review on each one...

http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/daily/politics/Contemporary_American_EOM.htm
Fair, balanced article explaining some of the mechanics of contemporary Mormon civics, though I would like to argue a few points here, I won't.


http://www.sltrib.com/2002/jan/01172002/nation_w/168242.htm
Fairly typical reporting from the Salt Lake Tribune, nominally biased (in my biased opinion) with a couple of factual errors.
One example of bias in this article:
Quote
The church loaned the 10-acre site in front of the Tabernacle and the majestic Temple for the Medals Plaza and gave $5 million to transform the former parking lot into a pedestrian mall.
...
It amounts to free advertis- ing for the church, critics say.

So, the Church lends 10 acres of prime real estate in downtown Salt Lake City for the Medals Plaza, and "spends $5 million to transform the former parking lot into a pedestrian mall" and it is called "free advertising"  What??!!!   -This is typical socialist thinking at its finest.  Using that same reasoning, UPS, Kodak, Coca-Cola and others also got 'free advertsing' for donating their products, services and millions of dollars to get some camera time too, huh?  (The Salt Lake Tribune is kind-of like the New York Times of the Intermountain West, IMHO)

The statement about how the Church got together to tighten liquor laws is false, I've got evidence to prove that they actually encouraged legislators to lighten liquor laws when the opinion was asked for.  (I've got it in hard-copy somewhere around here, give me some time, and I'll find it--the family is asleep right now, and I don't want to wake anyone).


http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2001/0104.mencimer.html
This article was pure drivel, a hatchet-job at best.  It was filled with so many distortions that it is obvious to me that the author was trying to produce bad impressions.

Some examples of how bad this article is:

Quote
The church had been coveting the downtown land for years, as it slowly snatched up all the real estate surrounding the Mormon Temple, its religious capital.
All current legal squabbles aside, the history on that piece of land shows that it was originally a donation given by the Church to the city several decades ago.

Quote
Mormons call all non-Mormons---even Jews---Gentiles
 I've still yet to, in person,  hear a Mormon call someone who is not a Mormon a "gentile" and I even lived in Utah for over 20 years!  I have heard plenty of people refer to themselves as "gentiles" to be humorous, but so far, not the other way around.

Quote
people crossing the plaza on their way to Nordstrom can now be bombarded with religious brochures and broadcasts of LDS church president Gordon B. Hinckley droning on about the evils of "so-called gays and lesbians."
 I have been to Temple Square and surrounding area about 100 times in my life, even as late as this last Christmas,  not once have I ever heard any church leader's voice being broadcast on the grounds or have I ever seen any literature being handed-out, nor has anyone I know ever heard of such a thing.  It is actually a very quiet and peaceful place due to the tall wall that surrounds Temple Square on one side and the tall building on the other side, not only can shoppers at Nordstroms not hear any broadcast from Temple Square, it is actually difficult to hear outside traffic inside the grounds.
Furthermore the Church has been very careful to distinguish between condemning homosexuality and "gays and lesbians" (Some people call it "condemning the sin, not the sinner" principle)  The Church recognizes that there are even people of such identity within the church.  See example here.

Quote
Passersby, however, can no longer use the space to protest..., listen to music, sunbathe, skateboard, smoke, or do any of the other things they used to be able to do on the city street and sidewalks.
That's odd, last time I went, I saw people acting strange and pretending to be hobbitts from the Lord of The Rings movie, complete with REAL "elven" swords, wardrobe and everything; security did nothing but watch them closely... but more to the point, why did the Church buy the property for $8.1 million if it was to remain a city block?  What's the point of private property?  It was somewhat of a not very traveled street before the Church bought it and made it into a beautiful park.

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...when Bush announced his intention to create a White House office of faith-based initiatives. Bush believes that religion has been unfairly pushed out of the public sphere..
 
As to Bush's 'Faith-Based Initiatives, here is what the President of the Church had to say about them, from a quote I picked-up a while back ago:

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"Hinckley [prophet and president to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons)] informed me that the Mormons were opposed to the concept of the new White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives, designed to help Americans most in need by integrating religious organizations with social services. "I am in favor of complete separation of church and state, and while we appreciate the offer of federal funding, we like to do ours on our own. Once the government is involved, regulations follow." In other words, thanks, but no thanks.
02/05/2001 - Updated 08:06 AM ET  
Mormons, Reagans and good reads
By Larry King of CNN's Larry King Live!


uh, need I go on?  Believe it or not, the article gets worse.  Proving again that you need to read most articles with a grain of salt (including my writings too)  ;)
   
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« Last Edit: June 29, 2003, 04:51:44 am by exitus... »
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ZionCurtain

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Re:The Mormon fact: ID & WY - summing it up
« Reply #12 on: June 29, 2003, 12:11:55 pm »

exitus wrote:That's odd, last time I went, I saw people acting strange and pretending to be hobbitts from the Lord of The Rings movie, complete with REAL "elven" swords, wardrobe and everything; security did nothing but watch them closely... but more to the point, why did the Church buy the property for $8.1 million if it was to remain a city block?  What's the point of private property?  It was somewhat of a not very traveled street before the Church bought it and made it into a beautiful park.

Some facts for you. The city only agreed to sell the land in exchange for them to keep it open to the public forever. If they could not abide by this then why did they purchase it in the first place. Also your are saying it was not a well traveled road is way out there in lala land. Just happens to be in the heart of downtown. Anyways as far as you LOTR reference they are not yet in control of the easement so they are not able to stop this, although they will be able to soon. Like I said before I have no problem with them doing whatever they want with their property, it was the backroom closed door sale of it and now not living up to their own agreement. Just another day in Utah living.
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SandyPrice

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Re:The Mormon fact: ID & WY - summing it up
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2003, 01:05:15 pm »

A word from one who was raised in the Mormon faith.  The United States accepted Utah as a state only if they would give up the polygamy.  This caused many of the old settlers to have to think twice about this, for this reason.

When the migration started and the first settlers following Young started out to find their Deseret the killing started.  Christians from all over the area where they passed through found the Mormons to be an evil cult.  So many men were killed that the wives were left without anyone to feed their children.  They were taken in my other families and married the male heads of the household.  They would have starved otherwise.

The women outnumbered the men to such an extent that the men married the young women who would breed more babies for them  (more members for the church).

This feeling of fear by the Mormons was still apparent when I was a child and my grandparents took me in as one of their kids and I discovered that many kids in my new school couldn't play with me.  We had dead animals thrown in our yard and terrible things in our mail boxes.

Christians do not like the cults.  

If you are thinking of Utah,  stay out of Salt Lake City!

As far as the church rules go, they are not a part of the membership but are rules of good health.  No depressant or stimulant is the way I read these items that have always made good sense to me.

Nothing would please me more than to have the FSP head to an area in south Utah, St. George where my old bones would stay warm and flexible.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2003, 01:07:32 pm by SandyPrice »
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LeRuineur6

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Re:The Mormon fact: ID & WY - summing it up
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2003, 01:23:53 pm »

Regarding Mormons in Utah:

I lived in Utah for 12 years and will never, EVER move back there!!!

Mormon people are psychologically different than every other person I know, and I could go on about this for quite some time, but I will not in the name of religious tolerance.  To them, their way of life, and to me, mine.  To learn more, go to: http://www.exmormon.org/

Mormon society in North Ogden (85%+ Mormon?) was difficult while growing up, primarily due to the morally self-defensive, exclusive, sheltered, and almost intolerable nature of most or all Mormon children in that city towards me, a non-Mormon.

As a new student in the second grade, the first questions I was ever asked by any of the Mormon children were "are you Mormon?" or "What ward are you in?"  I was what... 7 or 8 years old?  Did I deserve to be treated differently simply because I had not grown up a Mormon like they had?  I even knew various non-Mormons growing up who attended the LDS church only because of the tremendous negative effects of not attending.

I won't go into the time when my parents encountered a financial problem and appealed to the church and community for help only to be rejected for not having a good record of giving to the church.  It just makes me angry to talk about it.

After graduating, I applied for jobs in Utah and was asked if I was a Mormon on TWO separate occasions, then immediately rejected after refusing to answer, or after saying no.  One employer even said "you have to be Mormon."  I could have pressed charges but decided otherwise.  In a separate but similar case, I found a contracted position in SLC and was fired after one week because the Mormon client did not want a non-Mormon working for him.

I now realize that it was their inalienable right (though not their legal right), by freedom of association, to not associate with me, to not hire me, and to fire me, all for not being Mormon.  However, I also had the freedom to move out of Utah and never return, and I will continue to exercise that right.

Getting back to the subject of how this will matter to the FSP, let's talk about Utah's current political record.  Off the top of my head:

Separation of church and state?  Ha!  I have one word for you: "seminary."  Seminary is a class which can be taken during the school day in public junior high and high schools.  How is it "separation of church and state" that non-Mormon children are required to take a full school day of classes, but Mormon children are given a few hours off each day to learn LDS teachings in seminary classes.  As a matter of fact, the seminary classes are offered on the ballot of available classes on the sheets students use to sign up for classes for the next school year.

Oh yeah, and "seminary" buildings, and strategically-placed LDS churches, are practically ON school property.  They might as well just put the classes IN the school since that's the next logical step to where they are now.

-Orin Hatch practically tows the Republican party line except on the Clinton-era gun scheme.  He supports spending $400 BILLION on the "prescription drug plan", a Constitutional amendment (yes, an AMENDMENT) banning flag "desecration", laws "destroying" someone's computer for downloading copyrighted music, and many other sorry excuses for legislation.

-Utah banned unsolicited e-mail advertisements.  This was later overturned.

-Legislation of Morality:

Gambling is illegal in Utah.

Homosexual sex was illegal in Utah until the Supreme Court struck it down last week.  The Utah law called it "sodomy" and the punishment carried a maximum term of 6 months with a $1,000 fine.

Free speech was illegal on one block of Main Street in SLC, Utah.  The LDS church purchased the block from the city (but the city retained an easement for public access and passage) and banned certain speech and behaviors in the area.  The city AND the Utah federal district court upheld the ban until it was overturned in a US District Court and subsequently upheld in the US Supreme Court as a violation of the first amendment.

A school district in Utah eliminated all non-curricular clubs in an attempt to prevent a GSA (Gay-Straight Alliance) from meeting.

Protesting on public sidewalks was banned by Utah's House Bill 322 of 2001.  This was later overturned by a US District Court as a violation of the first amendment.
http://www.aclu.org/FreeSpeech/FreeSpeech.cfm?ID=10261&c=86&Type=s&insearch=utah

Utah's Highway Patrol allegedly practices racial profiling according to the ACLU.  Laws have been introduced since the time of these accusations to combat the practice, but it does tell you something about the culture.
http://www.aclu.org/PolicePractices/PolicePractices.cfm?ID=7608&c=118&Type=s&insearch=utah

SLC police have been among the first to express the desire to create databases of DNA profiles of everyone arrested and jailed in the county.  Be afraid.  Be VERY afraid.

Utah laws provide employers with discounts on worker's compensation premiums for implementing specific drug testing procedures.

Alcohol and tobacco advertisements are illegal in Utah.  This may have been overturned by now by US courts.

Smoking is banned in public places.


I'm just presenting the facts.  You can form your own opinion on whether or not they'll help our cause.
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